johnnymac

To Rob,



Question



It seem a lot of Czech & Japan VM’s. being posted on ebay, at least 2 to 3 a every week. Is this just a smart person(s) buying them up and remarketing them because the market is there, or is it a snake oil salesmen selling from his wagon? The bulk of the Japanese vic seems to be type1 and the Czech’s are a mixed bag of type 2 to 4 but never type 1?



JM

To All, I hope that I am adding something good to this site.

This a short story. I started my collecting days in the field of military uniform buttons. I lived about 115 miles from the home of the person who was most consided as the expert having written “The Bible” plus serveral other books on that subject. So after a few phone calls and a few visits, I was off to find these rare and hopefully unknown treasures at the Military & Guns shows armed with his book. I drove over 150 miles to a large show and after looking at countless items on the tables, I came upon a very rare button. The table was manned by a sweet old chap with a pipe in his mouth who had a box of these buttons. There was 10 in all. He was a local person not a dealor who travel from show to show. After going through his junk box, I found ten confederate buttons from the Civil War, all the same buttons and all same back markings. He knew that they were old but did not know their value and there had been no interest in them over the years. We set a price, $300 for all ten. The1970 book value was $100 each according to the “Bible”. So before I purchased them, I made a call to my new friend, the “Author” of the so-called Bible. After numerus questions from him, I was back at the table with my money in hand.

Due to my excitement, I drove over 265 miles to my friend’s home with my find due to the fact that he had interest in purchasing one or two of these buttons from me at book price a they were very rare. His repsonse was “oh them!” It seems as though a very respectable collector in the field was selling them as a great find after his purchase from a warehouse in Jamaica.

As the story goes: a blockade runner during the U.S. Civil War had a warehouse in Jamaica. A hundred years later, the items in the warehouse were put up for auction and purchased by this respectable collecteor. The respectable collector then sold hundreds of these buttons to collectors at very high prices even our “Author of the so-called Bible”. I asked him why there were no good references, details or photos of this button and over forty other known bogus buttons in his lastest book publication. He stated, “cost and time”.

I tell this story because we are caretakers of these items “Victory Medal’s or Buttons” not the owners of them and their history. I see the need for proper and full exchange of information. As well, I see junk being sold on Ebay at very high prices. The interest is there but not all the information as to what is a good buy verus a questionable buy.



Laslo’s book is a great starting point with its masterful details of the Victory Medal. However, because of the poor quality of its photographs, it has left me and I am sure countless others with a ton of questions. Since I have logged onto this chat site, you and all the others have filled in details that Laslo and Glein have left out.



I thank you all for your time, JM

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

To all,

Same manufacturer; same design, thin backstrap, different clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To All,

Hi to you All,

I put up for Q&A, - my questions and your answeres.

You see three official looking "SOMME, OFFENSIVE" clasps. The top one is for sure, an official issue clasp.

The other two look like the official type, but as you notice # 2 has less spacing between the "coma and the O"? Number three has a period not a coma? Are they manufactures differences?

Also the two "YPRES LYS" look like official clasp, but please note the lower bar and its stars, they are slightly offset to the left?

I would welcome all in put, thanks, JM

Hi to you All,

I put up for Q&A, - my questions and your answeres.

You see three official looking "SOMME, OFFENSIVE" clasps. The top one is for sure, an official issue clasp.

The other two look like the official type, but as you notice # 2 has less spacing between the "coma and the O"? Number three has a period not a coma? Are they manufactures differences?

Also the two "YPRES LYS" look like official clasp, but please note the lower bar and its stars, they are slightly offset to the left?

I would welcome all in put, thanks, JM

Hello JM,

For comparison here is a French repro vic with some confirmed French produced clasps. This particular French repro has no edge markings on the rim of the medal.

Note that it is suspended by a French made ribbon and not the usual U.S. ribbon. The differences are apparent when you place them side by side. Although it is hidden the medal suspender is produced by the 'N.S. Meyer Inc' firm and is marked as such.

It has a combination of both reproductions of official clasps as well as an unofficial clasp. On the back of each clasp (not the backstrap), in small impressed capitals, is 'MADE IN FRANCE' making these of later in the 1930s vintage. As can be seen the backstraps are of a uniform narrow width.

I hope this is of use.

Due to impending work commitments I'll shortly be having a longer break. Let's see if others join the party.

Regards,

Rob

Thank you "ALL" for the good information.

If you will note the type-set on ( A ) which I listed on my posting as a unofficial style from France you will see major differences from ROBW's posting ( B ) of unofficial clasps on the French made U.S. VM he posted.

In the unofficial ( B ) you see the coma is substituted by the use of the minus sign ( - ) in SOMME - OFFENIVE. Also in ( B ) of the unofficial clasp, the letters "M" in both (CHAMPAGNE MARNE & SOMME - OFFENSIVE) are upside down "W's". Adding to this, the clasp (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) is without clasp space separator bars on both sides. Finally I will point out the thickness of the clasp and half moons on the end.

Yet, there are space separator bars on both of the clasps, (SOMME - OFFENSIVE & CHATEAU THIERRY) of ROBW's posting. I ask myself why the differences? Was there an oversight on the (CHAMPAGNE - MARNE ) bar? Or were there two different full sets put out on the market? As I can see it, all "THREE" clasps were made by the same person/company.

JM

So many people watching; so few people posting...

To all,

Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference.

It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often. I have one with, and one without, engagement and country clasps.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob, I added something to your posting. JM

all feed back welcomed

Also to all,

This is also a French made VM, but it does not has a rim marked "made in France". I have several of this type VM, but only this one I just listed is without a rim stamp. I believe that the rim marked ones are because of the import / copy right rules of the 1920's. Also the two bars listed the medal are the usual suspect "type-set" most often found with this type medal.

JM

Again to all

The top two clasps (SOMME, OFFENSIVE & SOMME, DEFFENSIVE) are the official issue to the VM, the bottom two are French made. Please note letter style of these two bars. Compare the very noticeable (type-set) differences between the two sets of letters "S", "M", "E", "F", "V" and "N".

Check the other differences, the "Star" size of both sets of clasp, and the half moons on the end on both sets of clasps.

JM

So many people watching; so few people posting...

To all,

Here is are some pics of the not so regularly seen U.S. vic repro type 2 according to Mr Laslo's reference.

It is the repro that has 'Made In Italy' on the rim. There are very noticeable die variations on both the obverse and reverse compared to the official strikes as well as the French repro's, which are in themselves, also not seen that often. I have one with, and one without, engagement and country clasps.

Regards,

Rob

Also to all,

This is also a French made VM, but it does not has a rim marked "made in France". I have several of this type VM, but only this one I just listed is without a rim stamp. I believe that the rim marked ones are because of the import / copy right rules of the 1920's. Also the two clasp bars listed with this medal are the usual suspect "type-set" most often found with this type medal.

JM

Hi to all you who are interesed. there is a (63) Victory medal listing for sale on ebay (item # 160379547347). You name it, it is there. Siam, Brazil etc.

JM,

This particular official French vic was also produced by the firm of Janvier Berchot. While the more regularly seen JB mintmark has the strongly incused 'JB' within the triangle in this case the JB letters on the hallmark are less distinct and often result in them being worn or rubbed down. In some other cases it is just the plain triangle.

Here is one for comparison.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob I just sent Tim a reply and I also want to thank you for your relay, you wereright on the marking and medal, thanks again JohnnyMac

Another one while we're asking...

It's not the Monaisse de Paris cornucopia.

Tim

Hi Tim, I am sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but my internet service when down for three days, due to"Storm IDA". I live in a flood area in the state of Delaware, USA. I see that Rob has already posted the medal and photos of the French medal in question. I am also posting a clearer photo of the French triangle mark. I thank you both for your help. JohnnyMac

I have a question on the French official issue VM. I have not been able find out what mint used the triangle marking. In reading all that has been posted on this site, I did find this,



"Here is yet another vic; this time a French official model. While it looks like the standard model of note is the makers mark on the reverse. In this case it is a triangle inscribed with 'JB' which is the mark of 'Janvier Berchot'. They produced the French official vic in addition to the Paris mint".



My question is, is this triangle JB's mark? Or is the triangle a different mink mark without JB's influence?









Thanks, JM

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-8368-125795724368.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-8368-125795725645.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2009/post-8368-125795726489.jpg

Hi, I am new to the group and would like to throw something into the pot. I believe this is a Czech, re-issue, type 2? It had at one time a gilded finish as listed in Laslo book. But also it has some things that make it distinct from the official type 1 & 2 and the re-issue type 1. Obverse side, on the bottom by the feet, extra plant leaf veins. On the reverse side, Inside the shield vertical line, and the cross on it lower left arm is much longer. Any help here, JM