david grumpy

Worn in France by Captain 'Tiger' RN Philips, KiA October 1914

herewith

unfortunately, the fag card illustration is pure rubbish!

No. It was however Indian issue, although the example shown is a variant I have not seen before, with the little spiky bits indicating compass points. The Indian government were responsible for clothing ALL british soldiers in India, and erred on the economical side, shall we say. Cavalry scouts in India wore the regulation British fleur de lys. I have a few ills. of the S wreath badge worn on the Western Front by units fresh from India. The 'jacket' is the standard Indian Pattern dress frock, unlined but tailored and fitted. It has the same cuff, facings, collar etc as worn in the period of the Zulu war, long since replaced at Home. SNCOs had piping to the frock front and bottom.

You only have to PM me!

first regimental numbers officially 1829 BUT several 'with it' regiments had introduced them long before that!

Senior NCOs and WOs of 2nd RWF wore the flash on SD in the Great War as I understand it. A sergeant when offered the [staff] appointment of Sgt Cook asked "and shall I wear the flash?"

Surprised and disappointed that no badge of RM CSgt has been shown .... very colourful, lots of changes, and every bit as collectable as Guards Division.

So please can you say when the 4th chevron was awarded ...... after how many years? I ask because I wrote [i believed] the definitive account of these badges for MHS Bulletin and, if RM rules were different, MHS will publish an update from me.

There is some dispute as to when this was 'introduced'. Army Order 10 of January 1902 described it and used the future tense: "during the transition period and for some time after the introduction ....." "will first be supplied ....." etc Perhaps those with regimental histories covering the period could have a look?

Any one who seeks true understanding of the subject needs a copy of the JSAHR Special by Major Nicholas Dawnay "Badges of Rank of WO and NCO in the British Army". Scarce as rocking horse by-product but there is, as far as I can tell, only one error in it. Re. the CSgt wearing of the Colour badge ...... it was only EVER authorised and provided for the scarlet dress tunic .... all scarlet frocks, all SD, only ever had the crown and three chevrons alone. Some garments had NO badge authorised. The only exception to this is the 5 button Indian Pattern Scarlet Frock, provided by the Government of India as the 'best' winter uniform. This bore the colour badge. The only tunics provided in India were for the ViceRoys household troops.

Yes, I have absolutely no doubt that regimental practice varied. Even today, the Household Cavalry use a worsted crown versus a metal crown to distinguish [this from memory] LCpl of Horse from Cpl of Horse in SD

Graham, a few points of detail: RSM, as you will recall, was not a rank, but an appointment. It became necessary to change the title of the appointment of the senior soldier in the battalion from 'Sergeant Major' as soon as Company Sergeant Majors were appointed. This was first described in AO323/1913 October ...... "these duties [CSM and CQMS] will be carried out by the existing Colour Sergeants". No longer could the senior soldier be the SM, with four other SMs about [who were at that time two ranks junior to him, with all [R]QMSs in between]. The new CSMs retained their SD rank badge of three chevrons and crown [see CSM Barter VC, always badged thus] [i have no evidence that Colour Sergeants changed the size of the crown when appointed CSM, and can see no good reason for it in time of war] until order was restored and a second grade of Warrant Officer was created [AOs 70, 168 and 174 of 1915]. Until then, a RSM wore the crown, a RQMS continued with four chevrons and star, a QMS not appointed as RQMS just the chevrons, and a CQMS as CSgt badges. With the creation of WO II, CSgts appointed CSM took the crown, and WO I appointed RSM took the Royal Arms. The poor old QMSs were lumped in with the CSMs [they had hitherto been their seniors] and were to wear the crown also. Finally, AO 309 of 1918 gave the RQMS WO II back his dignity of a new usage of the crown within a wreath, thus showing the senior appointment.

Please note Royal Air Force does not, and never did, need two grades of Warrant Officer. All RAF WO are equivalent rank WO I only cleverer.

other than that he went to F&F on 11 Aug 1914 as CQMS [rank CSgt] of A or B Coy, and that he was never RSM of the battalion? He served in India with the battalion pre-war. Will dig around.

The reprint is fine if you want to be up-to-date, but suffers fate of many a reprint : degradation of picture quality. Churchill's collar dogs is a prime example of this problem.

I assume you have the 2005 reprint with added info? Denis did it on his own, he 'thought Langley was dead!'

Thank you: I don't disown the book, which I co-authored, but if I were to start again today, there would be a lot of changes!

any evidence please to support the contention that the enamelled flags badge was 'early', earlier than the plain gilding metal ['brass']? I ask because neither the Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers, nor Clothing Regs, nor Priced Vocabs [i have complete copies of all this info from c. 1850 to 1950] give any hint of an [expensive to produce] enamel version. My belief, which is up for challenge, is that the enamelled version is a vanity individual item, or a collective regimental vanity, and that it was never an Ordnance item. India, with its skilled native craftsmen, might be the source of the enamel badges.I think the only proof needed to knock my theory is a Sealed Pattern.