J Temple-West

Eric,

Here's the picture in question..

Hi Eric,

Picked up a few photo's of awards in wear and this was one of them. I may have a pic of a 1st pattern Deumer Obs too. Have a look and let me know what you think. I first thought it to be a 1st pat Assmann but the right wing has the characteristics of the Deumer. I'll post it on the thread about your Deumer Obs.

All good fun...

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5070

+1

Just returning to this thread to post a picture of 'Oblt Fritz Festhuber' showing this type of badge in wear.

Superb piece, D&N.

The price of Christmas and birthday presents just went up.

An example of an original JMME&Sohn maker mark.

Reverse.

Paul,

On first impression I would say that this is one of those badges that I would have to see a lot more of before accepting as original. If pushed, I would have to say that I have doubts.

What we see is an example of an ?Air Gunner/Flight Engineer? badge, in zinc, supposedly made from parts supplied by ?C.E Juncker? and marked ?JMME&Sohn Berlin?.

I could accept the JMME/Juncker connection as the collaboration between the two firms is well known,

Things that give me concern.

The badge has a reverse setup (Hinge/Catch) and cut-out swas? only found on Buntmetal pieces. Both JMME and Juncker used hinge/catch plates on their AG/FE badges.

The maker mark looks weak and not what I?d expect from an original mark? Again, it?s hard to tell from the picture but the ?M? looks too wide and the ?&? looks too small.

The eagle has a very small tail compared to other ?Juncker? examples and lacks overall detail.

I can?t comment on the rivets due to the size of the picture.

All I can say is that if this badge were offered to me?I?d pass and go for a less controversial example.

Here is an example of an AG/FE badge by Juncker. If you already have the badge, do some side by side comparisons and should you wish for some measurements, let me know.

Maker mark..

Reverse.

I've been asked to post some pictures of a LGAB by the maker G.H Osang. So here it is.

This one is the plated zinc, single rivet type with a Buntmetal eagle.

Hi gor,

I?m not up on these but I?d say that it?s some sort of regional or club glider qualification badge.

The man to get in touch with would be Stijn David. Send him a PM, I?m sure he would be only too happy to help.

Again, no obvious signs of it being a cast copy. I'm leaning toward it being an original unmarked AG/FE badge (Possibly the unqualified version) by B&NL with a bogus post-war marking.

Any other opinions, guys?

Well, from that picture it looks okay. Can't see any of the usual signs of casting. Of course better pix would be needed to be sure.

Deumer is well known for their collaboration with C.E Juncker.

If you?re lucky enough to find a Deumer piece, eight times out of ten it will be made from Juncker parts.

Hi Brian,

Well, this is a strange beast! The obverse shows that it?s an example by B&NL. The reverse confirms this by having the correct hinge assembly and recessed catch. The rivets are something of a mystery (possibly very late) as is the maker mark. As Richard points out, this maker mark is a worry.

Deumer badges retained the oblong hinge plate and round catch plate throughout their zinc series.

So, we most likely have an unmarked B&NL badge with a post-war stamping of a bogus Deumer maker mark or a cast copy of same. If it is a copy, it?s been very well done.

You've made my day, Steve. Nice to see them in pristine condition!

a LW pilot onboard one of the Kriegsmarine's capital ships is definitely not your average everyday find!

As you say, Simon. A very nice find indeed!!

Ed, it is only one example out of about a half case of 100 packeted awards.

Bob, sounds very interesting! What's the story?

An extremely nice piece, btw.

Ah, the double marked doppel? I?ve always been very envious since first seeing this badge.

I just happen to have a shot of the maker mark in my files?..

[attachmentid=28415]

As Steve says, this mark was indeed used by Assmann on a whole range of products, belt buckles being the item that springs most readily to mind.

I also have a 2nd model RAD EM Hewer hanger in my collection that has the same mark and is dated '38, so yes, a pre-war mark.

[attachmentid=28416]

I'll do some research and see how far back this mark goes.

As to the date of manufacture of this badge... I wonder if it's a little later than we think. We do know that the firm of Assmann is known for using existing dies and parts to make up later badges when needed, as in the case of the use of the early alu? wreath dies in the making of their ?42 AG/FE badge. The rivets certainly suggest the use of the type of "trial" rivet found on later pieces and are nothing like the type found on other "Egg" shaped wreathed examples.

As an example, here is a transitional piece (1st pat eagle on an early, thin 2nd pat wreath) that has both the early domed rivet (left) and the "trial" rivet (right). These "trial" rivets seem to have started to appear on early 2nd pat pieces until the firm managed to perfect the (ringed) conical rivet in use on the heavy 2nd pat series.

[attachmentid=28417]

Of course this is all theory and until further evidence surfaces to help us in our quest for an answer, we will just have to remain in a state of

In any event, this is a very rare marking to have on a very desirable piece.

If only it were mine!

Hi Jan,

I would have to agree with Steve....Not for me!

That is an extremely nice piece, Matt. Congratulations!

A few more.

Friedrich Haerle.

Paul Pawelcik.

Walter Lange.

Rudolf Kollenda

Harri B?ttner

Hans Schr?del

All were members of 1.K/88, KIA 12th March 1939.

Hi Genoa,

The signature on the cuff title document belongs to Major Pfeffer and is found on most "Urkunde" of this type.

I'm afraid I can't make out the signature on the other doc' but I'm sure that one of the other members will be able to make an identification.

Talking of someting a little different... Have you ever seen a cross-eyed frog?