Christian Zulus

Early Motherland 2cl - pale & dull gold plating

MOTHERLAND 2cl - two sub-variations ?

Gentlemen,

I have to Motherland 2cl in my small & humble collection:

(sorry for that terrible scan .)

The left one on the scan has the s/n. 2213 is unissued (fresh from the stock) and arrived in Vienna around 1992/93 with a Motherland 3cl and the (usual) authentic order booklet with 100 % faked entries. Have a look at the document : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=114479 . O.K., at least it's an authentic & genuine Motherland 2cl .

The right one on the scan has the s/n. 1604 and arrived in Vienna also in the 1990s, but without any documents.

What's the big difference?

The gold plating !

Motherland 2cl s/n. 1604:

Has the ident gold plating as shown on Andrew Kuznetsov's brilliant (English) website: http://mondvor.topcities.com/OZaSlRod.html

We can see a rather pale and dull gold plating, which is actually also rather thin. The gold plating is neither glossy, nor shiny and stains may come with the patina.

Motherland 2cl s/n. 2213:

Has the ident gold plating as shown in PMD's "Red Bible" on page 173 and in many official Soviet publications.

We can see a very intensive and high-quality gold plating, which is glossy & shiny and has no stains. Looks like the gold of a HSU, HSL or Lenin!

My questions:

1) Has there been an improvement in the quality of gold plating during manufacturing the Motherland 2cl? There had been difficulties in gold plating starting with the Order of the October Revolution. When - s/n. ? - did that change in gold plating took place.

2) Can we speak of a kind of sub-variation in the sense of Andrew's classification?

3) Does anyone have similar examples in his collection?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I love the design of the "Crab", because it symbolizes the Soviet Forces of the past-GPW-period very well. I think, that the designer, retired Colonel L.D. Pilipenko, an engineer of the Dzerzhinsky Military Academy, has done an excellent job . The "Crab" is a beauty with an impressive weight & size. On the other side, the Motherland 2cl is still a super-bargain, if you take the produced items - around 3.300 only! - into account. The market price (auction in Helsinki) is about USD 2.500,- only for a Motherland 2cl. If you compare that price with the price tags of early Lenin-screwbacks ....

Staraya Russa

The question refers to one very specific location.

Dear Marc,

then I would opt for one of the numerous battles for Staraya Russa (Ста́рая Ру́сса) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Russa , 100 km south of Novgorod and part of the Soviet North-Western Front. The fortified town was occupied by the Germans between August 9, 1941 and February 18, 1944. Totally destroyed by them .... .

Best regards

Christian

Hallo Mr. Zulus

There is already a Thread with regards this in the Lounge area:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25206

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25206&st=20

And the "Post 21" contains a link to the same pictures you posted.

Kevin in Deva.

Dear Kevin,

sorry .... it's my fault .

I read the mentioned thread at the Lounge area, couldn't remember the pics at the URLs and posted them again at the GMIC-section, which usually deals with uniforms etc.

At least these (very) nice pictures can now be directly seen in a GMIC-thread .

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

these are the new Russian uniforms, presented to Putin. That's a link with more photographs: http://diroman.livejournal.com/364087.html?page=2#comments

Best regards

Christian

You definitely are on the right track. Now, you need to be much, much more specific than that

Dear Marc,

many thanks .

"Soviet Verdun" & hughe losses indicate to the period after the Vlasov-debacle .

One of the meat grinding Volkhov battles of 1942/43 .

When to start and when to end ?

At the Novgorod Kremlin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Kremlin there is a big monument commemorating the battles against the Nazis at the river Volkhov:

Best regards

Christian

Volkhov Front

Both Christophe (at least earlier...) and Christian are on the right track

Dear Marc,

taking the losses into account (more than 300.000 casualities) I might opt for the Volkhov Front (Волховский фронт): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkhov_Front

There had been a saying among Red Army soldiers: "Better 3 times Stalingrad, than 1 time Volkhov Front!".

The spearhead had been Vlasov's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vlasov 2nd Shock Army: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Shock_Army

Best regards

Christian

I certainly agree about the location that Marc seemed to show us... But, as he also referred to "Verdun", with heavy casualties...

Dear Christophe,

well, I had been also wrong with Kursk, Smolensk or Rzhev ...

In the south we also have Sevastopol, as a true fortress like Verdun ...

Close to Leningrad we also have the famous Volkhov Front, with losses of the Red Army around the asked 300.000 .

Best regards

Christian

Dear Marc,

many thanks for the scans .

RB#7 seems to be authentic to me ...

I can hardly dedect the s/n. of RB#7 - could you tell it to us.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I still believe, that there had been RBs beyound #6 .

Regarding the "genuine" one, does anyone know if King Michael's piece is still in private hands outside Russia o is it back to Moscow?

Dear Enzo,

that's a very good question .

The same is true for Marshal Tito's item ...

The question is, are both Орден "ПОБЕДА" still in Switzerland & Serbia or are both of them in Moscow & Moscow ?

I guess, that both items are for some years in a bank vault in Moscow .

Just my 2 cents to the discussion ....

Best regards

Christian

Great T-34 shot in Belarus

Dear Bryan,

many thanks for sharing that great photograph of a KV-tank-column with us .

I am not so sure - as Private Kevin Ryan from Deva noted -, that it is a KV-85 ? The barrel of the gun seems too short and some other details of a KV-85 are missing ...

It might be a very, very late version of the KV-1 ?

Best regards

Christian

Dear Sergey,

that's a great uniform .

Best regards

Christian

Dear Christophe,

I guess, that Stalingrad is a bit too south, as Marc told to us that the direction (Leningrad) is correct ...

Maybe something west of Leningrad around Oranienbaum or Peterhof - two locations, which were hold by the Red Army during the whole GPW ?

Best regards

Christian

Hi Marc,

Not an easy one... I'm thinking about Operation uranus and Stalingrad...

1. What is the Russian name of the place?

Volgograd

2. Where is it located? What front was it part of?

Close to the former Stalingrad. Southern Front.

3. What was the maximum size (approximate) of the battlefield?

250 km.

4. How long did the battle last (beginning/ending dates)?

Operation Uranus took place from 19 November 1942 to 2 February 1943

5. What was the first unit engaged in the opening battle?

3 complete armies, the 1st Guards Army, 5th Tank Army, and 21st Army.

6. What is there today?

A memorial complex commemorating the battle, dominated by an immense allegorical sculpture of Mother Russia, was erected on the Mamayev Kurgan, a hill that saw some of the most intense fighting during the battle.

Cheers.

Ch.

Christian, 'Raznovidnost' can be literally translated as variety, diversity or difference.

Andrew doesn't give an explanation as to what a Tip, Variant or Raznovidnost exactly is. I have to go now, I can give a more detailed explanation about the differences between these later.

Dear Auke,

many thanks for your explaination .

Best regards

Christian

My experience with official serbian sources says it isn't worth to try it. Most stuff still is classified. And they are all in fear of ICTY too.

Dear Dragoner,

the fact is, that all the archives and other sources are located in Belgrad, so you have to deal primarly with the military historians in Serbia. Usually - if adressed in the right way - these people are very kind.

I can't imagine, that the JNA OoB of the year 1990 is still classified and the structure of the JNA before the YU-wars of the 1990s doesn't touch ICTY, The Hague, at all, I guess .

Try it !

Another proposal: Look around among the GMIC-members from Ex-YU, who post frequently here in the YU-section. Some of them might help you further.

Best regards

Christian

Expertise from "Military Museum" in Belgrade

Dear Dragoner,

try to send a letter - with your study attached - to Col. Miroslav Kne?ević, the director of the museum:

Pukovnik Miroslav Kne?ević

Vojni muzej

Kalemegdan bb

11000 Beograd

Serbien

Phone: +381 11 33 - 43 - 441

e-mail: vojnimuzej@mod.gov.yu

Best regards

Christian

Dear Marc,

dear Auke,

many thanks for the informations .

What might be the very exact translation of 'Raznovidnost' (Разновидность) ?

Does Andrew exactly define, what's a:

- Tip

- Variant

- Raznovidnost

- Raznovidnost + Letter

I guess, that among the same "Tip" the avers of the order or medal has to be ident ?

Among the same "Tip" & "Variant" the avers and (roughly) the revers has to be ident ?

Best regards

Christian

Andrew has Types, Variations, Sub-Variations and Sub-Sub-Variations. A Type is 'tip' (Тип), a Variation a 'variant' (Вариант), a Sub-Variation is a 'Raznovidnost' (Разновидность) and Sub-Sub-Variation are lettered, not numbered, after the Sub-Variation.

So, for example, an Order of Lenin type 5, Variation 1, Sub-Variation 2, Sub-Sub-Variation 1 is a Tip 5, Variant 1, Raznovidnost 2a.

JNA-structure just before the end of Yugoslavia

Dear Dragoner,

many thanks for sharing your highly interesting study with us .

Besides our native experts here at GMIC, you might also try to consult the experts at the "Military Museum" in Belgrade:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=16728

It's like our museum here in Vienna - the HGM - part of the Serbian Forces, so they sould have access to all informations.

Best regards

Christian

Hello forumers,

I'm interested in the cold war military history and working on an OOB of former JNA for some months now. What came out till now you can find at www.tank-net.org forums in the Military History section (topic "Jugoslavenska Narodna Armija"). Direct link:

<a href="http://"http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296"" target="_blank"><a href="http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296" target="_blank">http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296</a></a>

and you can have a free download of the OOB here: <a href="http://"http://rapidshare.de/files/38442900/JNA_OOB.pdf.html"" target="_blank"><a href="http://rapidshare.de/files/38442900/JNA_OOB.pdf.html" target="_blank">http://rapidshare.de/files/38442900/JNA_OOB.pdf.html</a></a> or here: www.megaupload.com/?d=733OMNXX

I'm interested in the time before the breakup of the state. According to the "Jedinstvo" plan, JNA underwent a fundamental transformation in the late 80's. In 1990 the first and most important phase of the reorganization was finished (e.g. with the establishment of the 10th Corps at Zagreb and the downsizing of TO).

The OOB still is incomplete in many ways. I hope to find some expertise here.

Thank's in advance

Dragoner

Gentlemen,

due to the fact, that we are now confronted with a new wave of patriotism and a new view on history in Russia, what puts the precious relicts of the GPW and "Golden Age" of the 1930s & 1940s of the CCCP in a mystic aura, the home demand for Soviet awards will keep on growing.

Have a look at the (closed) thread about Stalin in coming Russian history books: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24212 .

We might be also confronted with a so called "band wagon effect": First the Oligarchs (and/or their managers and advisers) are buying the ultra high end orders. Then the new "middle class" is buying the more common and mid-priced items. At the end the "masses" might run for all the medals, badges etc.

Another cause for rising prices might be in the near future the increasing demand from China - many people are living there and there is already a lot of money in that country.

I guess, that as long as the Russian economy keeps booming, the demand for Soviet awards will increase.

The fact is, that collecting Soviet awards in Russia seems to be now very fashionable and patriotic at the same time. Buying a Bentley is fashionable in Moscow. But to buy for the same amount of money a Suvorv 1cl is fashionable and patriotic.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: It might be, that Austria has even more of these chalets ...

A word of advice to the Russian collectors who are driving these prices - Keep your collections at your chalets in Switzerland.

Classification of Soviet Awards

It is a problem without being really a problem. If you go through the pages carefully, even if you do not read Russian, you can still figure out the types, the varieties and the sub varieties, as well as their respective serial number ranges.

Dear Marc,

you are right: It's not really THAT problem .

What might be the correct English translation of Andrew's classification categories:

Type - Variation - Sub-Variation ?

(Maybe: T / V / sV ?)

Does Andrew work with only 3 categories or are there some Sub-Sub-Variations possible ?

Best regards

Christian

BTW: So I will have to re-classify my collection .

KURSK 1943 ?

Pay attention to the fact that I did not simply write 'It is refered to as the "Soviet Verdun"'.

Dear Marc,

it might be Kursk, July 4 ? August 23, 1943 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk ?

Kursk had a nearly perfect defense system (better than Verdun ) and the Soviet casualities might match.

That's the memorial on Prokhorovka Field, where the biggest tank battle in the history of mankind took place:

Best regards

Christian

Andrew's classification - language problem

Dear Marc,

many thanks for your opinion .

I have long ago given up on McDaniel's classification, which I consider to be by now largely outdated. I use instead the Mondvor classification, which is much more correct, precise and accurate.

That's what I also guessed!

The fact is, that PMD made his classification in 1996/97 - almost 12 years ago - and there had been a lot of phaleristic research in the time between.

The problem among the non-Russian speakers in the collectors community is, that almost the whole Mondvor website is in cyrillic Russian . Is there a possiblity to get Andrew's classification in English language ?

Does Igor http://www.collectrussia.com/ use Andrew's or PMD's classification ?

Best regards

Christian

Are you making both the questions and the answers?

Dear Marc,

somehow - yes .

If I find something, which helps the discussion and the topic, I post it . I think, that's the correct way, how to deal with a topic.

Sorry again for the extremly bad scans .

O.K., the pics are so bad, that you (and nobody else) can't give any (serious) expertise ...

Who knows, maybe my RBL is made of plastic and I am a complete lunatic .

Given the fact, that I really bought my RBL in spring 1994, that I have good eyes & a clear mind and that I am somehow an experienced collector of Soviet stuff, what's your frank opinion - not expertise! - about the RBL T2/V1 s/n. 8660 ?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian

SMOLENSK 1941 ?

Dear Marc,

the Battle of Smolensk 1941 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Smolensk_(1941) had been called the "Soviet Verdun" ?

But far less than 300,000 Soviet troops had been killed ...

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I guess, that both of my proposals don't match ...

Dear Matthijs,

I guess, that's just the beginning ....

If you are well off and you have a lot of USD to spent on orders & medals, there are still some real bargains at the market .

Look at Igor's website at these items - in comparison to the recent development, these orders are still "underpriced":

HSU http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=17886

HSU http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=18445

HSL http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=17987

Labour Glory 1cl http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=16705

Four outstanding items! If you buy them now and sell them next year, you will make a fortune. But you will have to transfer 37k bucks to Igor .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: I guess, that the Soviet market is at the moment "over and out" for the ordinary collector, who doesn't want to trade items of his basic collection .

Hi Gents,

I haven't paid attention to the Soviet market for a few years now. I bought alot of pieces 4-6 years ago, and have recently compared prices with what they cost today. Needless to say I am shocked! I'm sure this topic gets lots of play here on the forum, but I was so shocked I had to post this.

I see Red Banners going for $450-$500 on eBay and more at dealers, when I paid $45 for mine 5 years ago. Here's some other prices I paid:

Friendship of Peoples: $200

Alexander Nevsky (deep dish variation): $600

October Revolution: $110

Labour Glory 2nd: $240

Lenin type 5.2: $640

The crab: $180

Again, I'm sure this forum sees a lot of bellyaching about Soviet prices, but I just felt like I had to post this to come to terms with it myself! Actually, if I were ever inclined to sell these I would be sitting pretty...will never happen though!