Serbia Yugoslavian Military Museum in Belgrad

[Christian Zulus]

Gentlemen,

the Military Museum in Belgrade - located at one of the most beautyful spots of Europe in the old Turkish-Austrian-Serbian fortress Kalemegdan at a hill in the center of the city over the confluence of the two hughe rivers Danube & Sava - offers also a comprehensive collection of YU-Awards and an excellent documentation of the Tito-Era.

It is open from 10:00 to 17:00 and you will find there also some experts in military history.

Sorry, there are only links in Serbian language and the website of the museum is rather dated .

http://www.muzej.mod.gov.yu/

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%92%D0%BE...%80%D0%B0%D0%B4

You shouldn't miss to visit the location, when you are in Belgrade .

Best regards

Christian

Edited March 31, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Drugo]

Abou the Kalemegdan fortress:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalemegdan

Outside the Museum, there is a permanent exposition of several tanks from the IIWW:

Filip

Edited April 1, 2007 by Drugo

[Christian Zulus]

Abou the Kalemegdan fortress:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalemegdan

Outside the Museum, there is a permanent exposition of several tanks from the IIWW:

Filip

Dear Filip,

you didn't show the impressive T-34/85 just around the corner .

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Dear Filip,

sorry ...... , the scans loaded too slowly - you have the T-34 in your photographs .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Many thanks for your exceptional photo documention .

Edited April 1, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[pmargulies]

Dear Filip,

sorry ...... , the scans loaded too slowly - you have the T-34 in your photographs .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Many thanks for your exceptional photo documention .

Chritstian - Have they recently opened the WW2 section of the museum...it was closed the entire time I was there. The national museum, reputed to also have a nce war display only recently opened up, but just for select showings. The museum at the airport was always a fun place to visit.

[Christian Zulus]

Chritstian - Have they recently opened the WW2 section of the museum...it was closed the entire time I was there. The national museum, reputed to also have a nce war display only recently opened up, but just for select showings. The museum at the airport was always a fun place to visit.

Dear Paul,

sorry, I haven't been for years inside the Military Museum .

But, if I look at the Filip's photographs of the tanks outside the museum, they restored and renovated a lot. Some time ago, the tanks & guns had been very rusty and in a bad shape - specially the T-34.

BTW: I love the T-34, because it's one of the most perfect products, mankind ever made : That tank actually won the GPW . The T-34 had been also somehow the blue print for the German "Panther", as the KV-1 had been for the German "Tiger I". All experts regard the T-34 as the most approbriate tank at the European war theatre in WW II: Simple, but clever designed & and easy for producing in hughe quantities. The T-34 had been also extremly long in service. It had been the recent Yugoslavian Wars in the 1990s, where that tank had been used at the battle fields. No other tankdesign had been successfully in use for over 55 years and in highly different war theatres: Europe, Asia & Africa.

The aviation department of the Military Museum is in a large round building at the airport of Belgrade, where you can see some MiGs (incl. MiG-29), domestic made jets and the fragments of the shot down F-117 A.

So, when you get out the plane in Belgrade, include one or two hours for visiting the aircraft collection .

Best regards

Christian

Edited April 1, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Kev in Deva]

The T-34 had been also extremly long in service. It had been the recent Yugoslavian Wars in the 1990s, where that tank had been used at the battle fields. No other tank design had been successfully in use for over 55 years and in highly different war theatres: Europe, Asia & Africa.

Best regards Christian

Hallo Christian,

I will agree with regards Ww2 and very early Post WW2, but since the advent of the R.P.G and the more improved Western sholder fired and ground fired Anti-tank rockets the T-34/85 was easily knocked out, large numbers being lost in many conflicts around the globe.

AND

The U.S. Sherman probably served as long as the T34/85 in various countries as well post WW2.

Kevin in Deva.

[Christian Zulus]

I will agree with regards Ww2 and very early Post WW2, but since the advent of the R.P.G and the more improved Western sholder fired and ground fired Anti-tank rockets the T-34/85 was easily knocked out, large numbers being lost in many conflicts around the globe.

AND

The U.S. Sherman probably served as long as the T34/85 in various countries as well post WW2.

Dear Kevin,

you are almost 100 % right .

In fact the T-34 had been already outdated in the war in Korea . Europe 1941 to 1945, that has been the "mission" of the T-34.

I think, that the Sherman hadn't been in active use (real conflicts!) till the mid of the 1990s, but he had also been for very long decades in service.

Israel produced a magnifently improved version of the Sherman and used the tank successfully (against T-34 ) in the numerous Middle East Wars.

But if you compare the Sherman to the T-34/85 at the WW-II-level, the Soviet product remains superiour:

- cheaper & easier to produce

- lower fuel consumption

- easier to repair

- better gun

- better soft ground driving

In my opinion, there had been 3 outstanding designs - regarding economy & performance - for tanks during WW II: Besides T-34 & Sherman also the Czech/German "Hetzer" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzer , a small and easy to build "Jagdpanzer" on the basis of the excellent Czech Skoda 38 (t) tank. The CSSR produced that small tank destroyer for many years and exported them to Switzerland.

It had been a great luck in history, that Germany did not produce the Hetzer earlier and in larger quantities .

Wars are won by 3 reasons:

- economy & logistics

- design of the weapons

- strategy, tactics & herosim of the soldiers

Germany lost the war for the first two reasons and the Soviets (also the USA) won the war for the first two reasons .

Best regards

Christian

Edited April 2, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[Drugo]

Last time I've been to the military museum (August 2006), the IIWW was still close. The IWW one was already re-opened, and there are some lovely Serbian Adrians from IWW and from the 20s on display.

I remember the last time I saw the IIWW section was in 2004, and I must say it was time to reorganize things there inside... The M42 shells were left without any control or protection (no glass, no cameras, rare museum keepers walking down the corridors) on a few shelves, and you could touch them and take them in your hands... The only security system was a metal detector at the exit (like the airport ones), nut I'm 99% sure it wasn't active (if it was, it would have been a miracle of the technology of the '60s... ). At that time I was too young to have any impure thoughts, but after than I spent many nights dreaming of a new visit to the museum, with a bigger bag and a faster step... In 2005 half museum was already closed, last year some sections reopened, but still work in progress...

The Yugoslavian section (1945-1990) was closed too, but it's quite understandable: it had more a propagandistic aim than historical, Tito everywhere, in good, old communist style.

[Christian Zulus]

The Yugoslavian section (1945-1990) was closed too, but it's quite understandable: it had more a propagandistic aim than historical, Tito everywhere, in good, old communist style.

Dear Filip,

well, I think the "end-design" of the communist YU-section will depend on the new Minister of Defense .

Under a DS or G 17+ minister the YU-section might become less patriotic, than under a DSS minister and under a SRS minister you will have a strong emphasis to the Chetniks .

What about the "YU-Civil-War"-section (1991 - 2001; 2001 = Makedonia vs. Albanians) ? A year after the NATO-bombing 1999 they displayed very nice items in the extra room just before the main entrance of the museum right before the steps. After the "October Revolution" in 2000 that section vanished. Only the remains of the F-117 A are shown at the Belgrade airport.

Neither the EU, nor the USA have a hughe interest, that the Belgrade Military Museum will document and display that period ...

Best regards

Christian

[Drugo]

Well, a museum should never show political tendencies, either communist or nationalist. At least a serious and respectable one...

The "Yu-civil-war" section is still there, completely visitable. Weapons from the 92-95 war, from Kosovo, and the original uniform of the American pilot captured during the bombings in 1999.

[Christian Zulus]

Well, a museum should never show political tendencies, either communist or nationalist. At least a serious and respectable one...

The "Yu-civil-war" section is still there, completely visitable. Weapons from the 92-95 war, from Kosovo, and the original uniform of the American pilot captured during the bombings in 1999.

Dear Filip,

as I stated, just after the "October Revolution" 2000 the 1999-section outside the main entrence was closed. It had been a strange time in Serbia, when the US-Embassy had the "absolute" power in the country and US Steel made a big business . So I think, it had been the wish of the USA to close that section and some times later the installed a section inside the museum.

Best regards

Christian

[Christian Zulus]

Well, a museum should never show political tendencies, either communist or nationalist. At least a serious and respectable one...

Dear Filip,

we had the same problem with our Military Museum in Vienna http://www.hgm.or.at/eng/ under the old director, who retired now. And our museum is one of the most serious and most respected in the world .

The section "1918 - 1945" had been the personal "masterpiece" of the old - very conservative - director. Despite the fact, that the section was perfect from design and from the shown items, you got a strange feeling, because of two facts:

- it is somehow a "glorification" of Austria's time of clerical-facism (1933 - 1938) - similar to Mussolini's Italy

- the 3 puppets with Red Army uniforms are "naked" - without any decorations.

Years ago I already offered to donate some of my double Soviet stuff (orders & medals: RBs, RS, XX-Years RKKA, etc.) for the poor Soviet puppets and the Medal "Capture of Vienna". All other soldiers in that section have their decorations. But the responsible member of the museum's staff told me frankly: "Your offer is very nice, but the "Herr Direktor" doesen't want any decorations at the Soviet puppets and also no medal "Capture of Vienna"!

O.K., the young new director http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=163392 told to me, that he will "renovate" the section "1918 - 1945" and then he would like to have the Soviet puppets with the proper decorations on their uniforms .

What I want to say is, that Military Museums all over the world are a highly political affair concerning the sections of recent history .

Best regards

Christian

Edited April 3, 2007 by Christian Zulus

[order_of_victory]

Hi Christian

Here some intrestin facts relating to aircraft in Serbia:

At one stage the Serbian Air Force had two MiG29UB's under references and 18301 and 18302

An intresting note that that the Serbian Air force had two Lear jets and the government had five and in 1995 they were still using YU refference codes

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

Hi Christian

Here some intrestin facts relating to aircraft in Serbia:

At one stage the Serbian Air Force had two MiG29UB's under references and 18301 and 18302

An intresting note that that the Serbian Air force had two Lear jets and the government had five and in 1995 they were still using YU refference codes

Order of Victory

Dear Vic,

many thanks for the interesting facts .

The two MiGs had been trainers, I guess.

Maybe they still use the old YU reference codes for their aircrafts ? Serbia is the legal successor of old Yugoslavia and JAT http://www.jat.com/active/en/home.html is still named JAT - and not SAT .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: JAT is one of the most secure and save airlines in the world: No crashes at all! Excellent pilots & good maintenance.

[order_of_victory]

Dear Vic,

many thanks for the interesting facts .

The two MiGs had been trainers, I guess.

Maybe they still use the old YU reference codes for their aircrafts ? Serbia is the legal successor of old Yugoslavia and JAT http://www.jat.com/active/en/home.html is still named JAT - and not SAT .

Best regards

Christian

BTW: JAT is one of the most secure and save airlines in the world: No crashes at all! Excellent pilots & good maintenance.

Hi Christian,

They have dropped the YU code on millitary aircraft but still use the 5 digit number

Never flown JAT, but it sound beter than Aeroflot

Order of Victory

[Christian Zulus]

1999-section of the Military Museum in Belgrade

Gentlemen,

I found a nice presentation of the 1999-section (NATO-War) of the military Museum in the internet:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/museum/index.htm

You will find there 3 galleries with photographs of Dusko Markovic.

Best regards

Christian

[Dragoner]

Hello forumers,

I'm interested in the cold war military history and working on an OOB of former JNA for some months now. What came out till now you can find at www.tank-net.org forums in the Military History section (topic "Jugoslavenska Narodna Armija"). Direct link:

<A href="http://%22http//63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296"" target=_blank><A href="http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296" target=_blank>http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23296

and you can have a free download of the OOB here: http://rapidshare.de/files/38442900/JNA_OOB.pdf.html or here: www.megaupload.com/?d=733OMNXX

I'm interested in the time before the breakup of the state. According to the "Jedinstvo" plan, JNA underwent a fundamental transformation in the late 80's. In 1990 the first and most important phase of the reorganization was finished (e.g. with the establishment of the 10th Corps at Zagreb and the downsizing of TO).

The OOB still is incomplete in many ways. I hope to find some expertise here.

Thank's in advance

Dragoner