Christian Zulus

2 nice "Lenins" with starting bid of USD 960,- at Dimitry's N.Y.-auction tomorrow morning

Gentlemen,

Dimitry has two "Lenins" - T5 / V1 s/n. 99487 and a T6 with hand engraved serial number - both with a starting bid of USD 960,- (incl. all fees for the US-buyer) at his auction tomorrow morning at the "Waldorf Astoria", Park Avenue, New York City: http://www.russian-medals.net/ .

Let's have a look, how the bidding will go on .

I estimate the T 5 somewhere around USD 1.900,- and the T 6 around USD 1.400,- (incl. all fees) .

Best regards

Christian

Gosh, that makes the 700usd I paid for mine a bargin

Dear Vic,

that's true .

I had been lucky to get an "Lenin" T6 / V2 s/n. 433268 from the 1970s - in absolute mint-condition (10/10) - in Vienna (in the year 2000!) for mere EUR 400,- .

Best regards

Christian

Dear Auke,

many thanks for the "West Point"-link - I can use one map for my Gnitienko-thread .

That special "Totenkopf"-map shows, that Hitler used his elite-tank-division with their "Tigers" always as a "Feuerwehr" ("firebrigade") at the Eastern Front.

Best regards

Christian

"Lenin" bargains offered by Mr. Rabkin

Gentlemen,

if someone wants to deal with Eugene Rabkin http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=22590 , he offers two "Lenin" T6 (one with orders booklet, the other without) for mere USD 1445,- : http://www.russianglory.com/soviet_orders.htm

Best regards

Christian

What's going on? Is there anything I am missing about this particular award?

This is just common Lenin order, there's nothing rare about it.

Dear William,

I guess, that 4 factors determine the price for an (ordinary) "Lenin":

- actual market price for pure gold

- exchange rate of the USD vs. EUR

- the "Lenin" IS the highest order of the passed away CCCP, so the demand inside Russia is hughe

- the design of the "Lenin" is of breathtaking beauty, so demand, demand ....

For months, factors 1 & 2 are bitter reality AND the Russian collectors have money AND the "Lenin" is their national heritage.

As an economist, I guess, that the price for one ounce of pure gold will be soon beyond USD 1.000,- and that the USD will never recover again - the future of the USA might be the role of a cheap resource of working power for Europe, China, Japan & India ...

The present market reality is, that dealers ask about USD 2.000,- for an "Lenin" T5 / V1 (without documents!): http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=18334 (exactly 14 years ago - january 1994 - I paid EUR 470,- for an identical "Lenin" s/n. 180.922 of the early 1950s - that "Lenin" has been the starting point of my modest & humble Soviet collection )

Best regards

Christian

I decided not to keep the group and will return it to the seller.

Dear William,

I would have acted in the same way .

I think, that this is the only genuine entry in the orders booklet - all the rest is doctored:

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Which dealer offered you the "group" & orders booklet ?

So I was wondering how the picture in the booklet got all folded etc. while the cover of the booklet is just fine?

I can't imagine that they would use an old picture in a nice new award booklet........

The stamp matches well enough but still....

Dear JC,

that's true, but maybe the paper of the orders booklet had been somehow "ironed", that it wasn't folded anymore - and you can't iron a photograph without ruining it. In that case, the cover of the orders booklet has to show traces of getting folded ...

The photograph was a rather new post-GPW one. Maybe our comrade Victor himself ruined the picture by accident before he gave the photograph to the clerc in the office - alcohol ....

Another point makes me worry:

The stamp is rather strong on the photograph, but very, very weak on the paper of the booklet page - you can't read it anymore . Usually it's the other way round, because the stamp stays longer on booklet-paper, than on a photograph.

Just for comparison, here are the two pages of the above mentioned orders booklet of major Baranovsky http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24254 :

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

a Soviet-made Partisan Star had been also my first YU-Award .

Best regards

Christian

What was your first Yugoslavian medal?

For me it all started with this one.

I thought it would be the only Yugoslavian medal I would buy.

Dear William,

besides the two missing long service awards - MMM & RS -, it looks like, if 3 different persons made the entries in the different sections of the order booklet and that the entry of the long service RB (from the 1950s) had been made at the same time and by the same person, as the entries for all the other GPW-orders (from the 1940s) ?

Have a closer look at the writings:

Just compare it to the Baranovsky order booklet http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24254 (also with long service awards), where the two dates and the entries of his first orders & medals (as shown on the photograph) had been filled out by the ident person.

Best regards

Christian

Some research about Savelyev's OPW 2cl citation

Dear Auke,

congratulations to your fast growing group - extraordinary well preserved items

Sorry, the passed away SS-Rottenf?hrer (driver of the "vorgeschobener Beobachter" in the 3rd SS-Sturmgesch?tzabteilung) didn't write anything about these weeks of heavy fighting in his memoirs .

The citiation about the documents of the SS-Panzergrenadierdivision "Totenkopf" is highly interesting . Is it possible to get more detailed informations out of your documents ?

A friend of mine, SS-Rottenf?hrer Ing. Richard Zimmermann (he died as an old man last year), served in the "Totenkopf"-unit (one of the Sturmgesch?tz-Abteilungen) from the very beginning, from the mid 1930s, till to the very end, Vienna, april 1945, constantly. Years ago he published his memoirs and gave a very comprehensive history of the "Totenkopf"-unit to me. I will be back to my library in Vienna end of next week and maybe I might find something from the German side about these days, when comrade Savelyev captured the documents.

But I found some informations and a useful map in Charles W. Sydnor's comprehensive book "Soldiers of Destruction:

The SS Death's Head Division, 1933-1945" (I have the German edition): http://press.princeton.edu/titles/847.html

The map shows the movements of the SS Death's Head Division at the Eastern Front:

The entry of SS-Brigadef?hrer Hellmuth Becker (the unit's commander at that time) has also some informations: http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.de/W...er-Hellmuth.htm

Results of my quick research:

At the period in question - 15th of october to 3rd of november 1943 - the 5th Guards Tank Army tried fiercely to capture the town Krivoy Rog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryvyi_Rih , a strategically most important railway junction and industrial center in the Ukraine. The Red Army failed completly with high losses (Sydnor writes, that Konev lost more than 300 tanks!). In the first line of the Germans and their spearhead was the SS Death's Head Division and that German elite-unit inflicted the biggest losses to 5th Guards Tank Army. As shown at the map, the SS was coming from the north, from the region of Alexandria and attacked the right flank of Rotmistrov's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Rotmistrov advancing tanks. So the captured SS-documents by Guards Major Savelyev might have been of some importance for Rotmistrov's staff for getting insight into the plans of the SS Death's Head Division. Maybe they SS-documents didn't help too much and so comrade Savelyev didn't get the proposed RB, but an OPW 2cl - just my humble speculation. Guards Major Savelyev combat reconnaissance must have taken place in the region north of the vital town Krivoy Rog, I guess.

It's interesting, that the 5th Guards Tank Army was north of Krivoy Rog again confronted with the SS Death's Head Division, like in the battle of of Prokhorovka (Kursk) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Prokhorovka some month before. Another clash of two elite-tank-units.

Anyhow, it had been a extraordinary keen action of Guards Major Savelyev to capture in the night documents from the SS Death's Head Division staff, an absolute elite-unit of the Germans.

Best regards

Christian

So . . . there is still much MUCH field open for a good multi-lingual work. Please!!

Those of us on the forum will will be glad to help, where and how we can.

Dear Ed,

dear Anatoly,

I am waiting for months for some basic informations from Ranko in Belgrade .

He offered to us his participation in the book project and I regard it as useful, to start with the whole project not without him.

An idea:

Maybe we can use the scans and some basic content of the Russian book for other enhanced volume

Does anyone know the 3 authors from Ex-Yugoslavia ?

This Russian book on YU-awards might induce a fast growing demand of these items by Russian collectors - and we all know the effect on prices ...

PMD's "Red Bible" has to be our benchmark .

Best regards

Christian

Lieber Waldemar,

these are interesting news .

As soon, as Ranko sends you a copy, please post some scans of some typical pages - many thanks .

It is written, that the book is in "large format", but I regard 143 pages as a bit small ...

Another problem might be the Russian quality of colour print, but they improved in that field within the last years dramatically.

And the book is only in Russian language ....

Best regards

Christian

There is a new book about Orders and Medals of Communist Yugoslavia. This book was printed in Russia and is written in russian. Very interesting book especially for all those who can read russian.

Dealer http://www.singidunum-online.com/shope/ind...tegory_secID=20

L16250 - Veličko, Aleksandr - Gerić, Lazar - Ozolin?, Vitalij. ORDENA I MEDALI KOMUNISTIČESKOJ JUGOSLAVIJI. Orders and Medals o, 143 str. velikokog formata, ilus. u boji, tvrdo ukoričenje.

Literatura, Medalje, Odlikovanja, Militarija,

L16250 - Veličko, Aleksandr - Gerić, Lazar - Ozolin?, Vitalij. ORDENA I MEDALI KOMUNISTIČESKOJ JUGOSLAVIJI. Orders and Medals o, 143 str. velikokog formata, ilus. u boji, tvrdo ukoričenje.55.00 ?

As has been said already, we can sit here and pitch out guesses as much and as long as we wish, but the only way to answer any questions will be through research. While it may raise new questions, tell us things we didn't want to know, or reveal invisible wonders, it is the only way to resolve any of these questions.

We look forward to seeing the results!

True words, Ed .

Best regards

Christian

Gentlemen,

it seems, that comrade Gerasimenko promoted to officers ranks after the GPW, but the long service Red Star for 15 years duty is missing in the orders booklet .

Comrade Gerasimenko had been already sergeant major in the GPW and if he stayed in the Soviet Army after 1945 it doesn't seem unlikely, that he promoted to an officer.

There are some cavaliers of the Order of Glory, who ended up as a major or even higher.

O.K., everything under the aspect, that the last entries in the orders booklet are not faked ...

Best regards

Christian

Was he a Medic? Or did he bring his wounded comrades off of the front to an Battle Aid Station?

Dear Doc,

no, not at all! He had been - as a sergeant - just an ordinary commander of section in a machine-gun company (= leader of a sub-division; group inside a platoon).

During a reconnaissance mission 1100 meters beyond the fortified "Tatar Wall" in the Perekop region, at the western entrance to the Crimean Peninsula, Gnitienko and his team made some "action" inside the German trenches, 4 comrades had been heavily wounded and our sergeant managed to bring them off of the front to a Battle Aid Station. For that deed, he had been awarded with the Glory 3cl.

I guess, that Gnitienko had no "special" education at all: Till end of 1943 he repaired as a brigadier (= foreman) with his team railroads, then served as a sergeant (Crimea & Baltics), promoted to a Cavalier of the Order of Glory and after the GPW (1945) he worked as a crane operator at a fuel depot.

Best regards

Christian

While rather uncommon, Soviet enlisted personnel did receive the Order of Bogdan Khmelnitskiy 3rd Class during the Great Patriotic War.

Gentlemen,

the Khmelnitsky 3cl had been also a not untypical award to partisans (NCO & enlisted ranks!) - have a look at the regulations & statutes of that order.

Best regards

Christian

I am glad to hear that Sergeant Gnitienko's "Glory-Trio" is the real deal!!! Congrats One day I might have something close to that.

Dear Doc,

many thanks for the congratulations .

As I already pointed out at the "Nakhimov-Medal-thread" http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=230106 , our researcher did THE job perfectly and without the advice and motivation of you and some other collector-friends here at GMIC, I wouldn't have invested several hundred of USD into the research - thousend thanks to you and to the others .

I was lucky, because it turned out, that our Sgt. Gnitienko was almost a "prototype" full cavalier of the Order of Glory with great & couragous citations from historic important battles: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=229303

You can read in Gnitienko's citation for his Glory 3cl, that he had been also active in your military profession as a field medic: He brought forth 4 heavily wounded comrades from the enemy trench and from the battle field during a reconnaissance mission beyond the "Tatar Wall".

As long, as the Russian economy keeps on booming and the exchange rate of the USD slides down, such groups will stay expensive - but who knows, what the future will bring.

For me, Gnitienko's Glory-Trio is much more important as a matter of keeping up the memory of a Soviet working class GPW-Hero and as a part of WW II-history, than as an mere investment, as I mentioned in that post: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=230004

Best regards

Christian

Lieber Waldemar,

that's really a beautiful item, I have never seen before .

It has the typical style of the very early Soviet badges .

Any mint marks at the rv. ?

Dimensions ?

Best regards

Christian

Our veteran's civil occupation before and after the GPW

Gentlemen,

thanks to the translation of Auke "Ferdinand" http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=232818 I can complete now the (labour & military) biography of Sgt. Gnitienko. The result is a very homgenous one :

He worked as a brigadier (= foreman) leading a railroad repair brigade before entering active service in the GPW. I guess, that Gnitienko & his team repaired the ruined tracks, which left the Germans rather destroyed during their withdrawl at the Eastern Front (he joined in november 1943 the Red Army).

During his GPW-duty Gnitienko was Sergeant and a section leader (= almost the same position as a brigadier in civil life, leading a small group of comrades) in a machine-gun company.

After the war (1945) he got - maybe due to his 3 Orders of Glory (3cl, 2cl + another 2cl) - the better paid job of a crane operator at a fuel depot (such jobs are rather well paid in the West and I guess, also in the East). He moved from Poltava to Charkov.

Best regards

Christian

BTW: Gnitienko had been already too old (and retired) for getting "Orders of Labour Glory". Otherwise he would have been a candidate for getting one or two Labour Glories, as the (younger) full cavalier of Glory, Gennady Korjukov, who got - in addition to his 3 (military) Glories - a Labour Glory 3cl & 2cl in later years (from the small Putnikov-booklet). I don't think, that there any double cavaliers: Glory & Labour Glory ?

Dear Auke,

many, many thanks - your translation really helped .

That's really "homogeneous" in Gnitienko's biography:

He worked as a brigadier (= foreman) leading a railroad repair brigade before entering active service in the GPW. I guess, that Gnitienko & his team repaired the ruined tracks, which left the Germans rather destroyed during their withdrawl at the Eastern Front (he joined in november 1943 the Red Army).

During his GPW-duty Gnitienko was Sergeant and a section leader (= almost the same position as a brigadier in civil life, leading a small group of comrades) in a machine-gun company.

After the war (1945) he got - maybe due to his 3 Orders of Glory (3cl, 2cl + another 2cl) - the better paid job of a crane operator at a fuel depot (such jobs are rather well paid in the West and I guess, also in the East). He moved from Polatva to Charkov.

Best regards

Christian

Hi Christian,

Literally he was a "brigadier of a railroads repair brigade" before the war. After the war he worked as a "crane operator at a fuel depot".

Hope this helps,

Auke

Dear Vic,

that's a matching "Z"-series order book of that time.

So, there had not been a strict consecutive awarding of that order s/n. after s/n.

Maybe they had a storage system similar to "Glory", "Motherland" or other orders ?

Best regards

Christian

Civil job of GPW-veteran before and after military service

Gentlemen,

I need some translation advice - my Russian is too bad (almost nonexisting) and my Russian dictionary isn't a great help either in finding jobs.

I am interested to find out the occupation of Sgt. Gnitienko, full cavalier of the Order of Glory http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5536 , before and after his military service during the GPW.

Years ago, someone translated for me, that Gnitienko worked before his military service as a road-construction worker and after the GPW in a steel foundry.

Is it possible, that it is written in his biography, that he had been a crane-operator in a steel foundry ?

That is Sgt. Gnitienko's biography from the reference book "Cavaliers of All Three Classes of the Order of Glory":

Many, many thanks for your translation help in advance .

Best regards

Christian

Great stuff Christian!

Dear Paul,

many thanks - I am still working on the subject .

It seems to be a mistery, why in the mid of the 1970s tenthousends of "October Revolutions" had been awarded .

In the first years (after the 50th anniversary of the revolution) and in the 1980s till the end of the CCCP this order had been rather scarcely confered.

Maybe there had been a rather similar case with the "Motherland 3cl": At the 8th of may 1975, the 30th anniversary of victory in the GPW, a large number of the veterans (officers), who also served after the war in the Soviet Forces, received the "Motherland 3cl". Till the beginning of 1981 there had been almost 50.000 soldiers awarded with that order (including non-GPW-veterans & officers in Afghanistan).

Best regards

Christian

"Order of the October Revolution" s/n. & awarding dates

Gentlemen,

from Kuzenko's book his list (+ 3 additions):

s/n. & date

12 - 22.02.1968

26 - 25.10.1968

145 - 30.10.1970

1501 - 05.04.1971

1851 - 08.04.1971

2015 - 17.04.1973

11014 - 26. 04.1971 (in Ed Haynes' collection)

44936 - 30.05.1974

61003 - 12.12.1973 (in Vic's collection)

63908 - XX.XX.1973 (in Ed Haynes' collection)

80185 - 24.12.1976

95927 - 30.12.1990

We can dedect an radical inflation of awarding that order in the period of about mid of 1973 to end of 1976 .

What might have been the reasons ?

Contrary to Lenin, RBL or FoN the "October Revolution" was relativly moderate awarded in the 1980s and 1990/91.

The first two "October Revolutions" had been confered at the 4th of october 1967 to the Hero-Cities of Moscow and Leningrad.

At least four comrades got 2 "October Revolutions" (violating the regulations); one of them had been comrade Brezhnev, who received the s/n. 58256 and s/n. 87064.

Above listed s/n. 12 went most likely to the Cruiser "Aurora" <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Aurora" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Aurora</a> . The ship is part of the medallion of the order.

Best regards

Christian

"Order of the October Revolution" s/n. & awarding dates

Gentlemen,

from Kuzenko's book his list:

s/n. & date

12 - 22.02.1968

26 - 25.10.1968

145 - 30.10.1970

1501 - 05.04.1971

1851 - 08.04.1971

2015 - 17.04.1973

44936 - 30.05.1974

80185 - 24.12.1976

95927 - 30.12.1990

Best regards

Christian