ayedeeyew
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Posts posted by ayedeeyew
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2 hours ago, Farkas said:
The stamps on these trousers were put there by the recipient, it’s his unit and the date. ‘A’ Company presumably and 1918.This is 100% incorrect I'm afraid. Perfectly as marked before it ever got to the original owner.
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11 hours ago, Farkas said:
...to me it’s an unusual label for a private purchase tunic, though hopefully if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin and regardless it would be interesting as that’s also unusual on an officers tunic….
People tend to forget that increasingly from the mid-war period onwards an option available to officers in the field (and those less well off) was to purchase/replace their kit through the War Department. The markings Will describes and the label he shows are typical for these "off the peg" garments (I have previously seen the general quality described as "workman-like"). They have a much lower survival rate than the usual private purchase items, and I consider myself very fortunate in having a 1918 dated pair of the trousers of this type:
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On 18/02/2024 at 10:39, USN said:
... It also had a leather tab sewn inside of the left breast of the tunic which I'm unsure of its purpose....
It's to fix your pocket watch on it's strap or chain.
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4 hours ago, NormanW said:
Another request for a Medal identification please.
Photograph of a Metropolitan Police Constable from J Division, Bethnal Green. The uniform looks Edwardian.
Can anyone identify the medals from the ribbons please?They are the 1887 Police Jubilee medal with the 1897 Bar and the 1902 Police Coronation medal, eg:
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On 20/04/2022 at 15:43, filfoster said:
I am seeking a City of London uniform duty armband. Where would I find such for sale?
On Ebay currently - listed as Met Police, but correct red/white for City:
VINTAGE GENUINE METROPOLITAN POLICE RED & WHITE ‘ON-DUTY’ CUFF BAND | eBay
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On 21/04/2022 at 16:37, filfoster said:
How do these attach to the sleeve to keep from sliding off?
On 21/04/2022 at 23:00, filfoster said:Are these wide cloth loops in the cloth of the coat or thread loops in the band color?
Are the loops placed at the opposite front and back of the sleeve? Is there a picture of these?
Sorry for all the bother but I'm setting up a display and need to know what to sew on. Thanks!
Filfoster - until 1895 in the Metropolitan Police (at least officially) there were no loops on the tunic for the Duty Armlet, and period photos prior to this certainly show a great deal of variation in where the armlet was positioned (presumably it tended to start to be initially positioned higher on the lower part of the sleeve and gradually work itself further towards the cuff as the day wore on). This was eventually standardized so the lower edge of the armlet sat 3 inches from the base of the cuff.
Loops I have encountered on original jackets also display variation in material and construction. Usually they are made from the same material as the jacket (so serge for serge tunics, melton for melton tunics, etc), but I have also found black cotton tape used as well (see below), also loops formed from stout blue-black sewing thread. I have included some photos with added measurements taken from a mint unused 1954 War Department Constabulary OR's jacket in my collection as it broadly follows normal Police practice. They show the back and front of the same (left arm) sleeve, with the loop aligned against the rear seam on the viewers left photo and with the loop aligned against the front seam on the viewers right photo:
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On 17/07/2020 at 07:32, hchscurator said:
If the photo was taken in the 1930’s, this was PC Francis Arthur Davis.
Thanks for this - how certain are you of the spelling of the surname there? I ask as I passed this information on, and three family names that are contenders for who this is supposed to be are apparently Marks, Welch and DAVEY. I personally believe this photo pre-dates the 1930's, but not by a lot, and Davey is very close to Davis if that is just a coincidence...
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2 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:
Isle of Wight Constabulary. Aside from the distinctive helmet plate, he has the letters "IW" on his epaulette.
Excellent, thanks.
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This was sent to me for identification, but I can't recognize what force the helmet plate is for. PC in question apparently had strong links to Somerset. Does anyone recognize what force the helmet plate is for? Thanks in advance.
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On 03/05/2020 at 09:55, dpk said:
Contact me dpk@iinet.net.au
Sent.
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On 10/04/2020 at 01:11, dpk said:
Did see that, contacted the seller to see if he would split the 3 items but no go. I guess he would rather not sell three, than sell one!
Have sent you a PM regarding something that may be of interest.
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If it's any interest, there has been a Lancaster Police example listed for sale on Ebay for a very long time:
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17 hours ago, Alan Baird said:
...The photograph, I believe, is probably from the mid/late 1880's or 1890's but I am not a ripperologist so I can't confirm that fact...
Tunics are the post-1897 pattern and the helmet plates appear to be the pre-1906 pattern with Guelphic crown, so a relatively short time span.
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6 hours ago, ChrisW said:
...Besides the cuff marking (which I think denotes a traffic policeman, but am not certain)...
It's a Duty Armlet - see:
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On 24/01/2020 at 18:05, bigjarofwasps said:
Has anyone ever seen a 1911 medal with an arm instead of a ring? An early prototype perhaps??
Not on a full size medal, but it is sometimes encountered on miniature versions of the same (due to the difficulties of getting the ribbon to behave correctly on the reduced scale through the ring - most companies seem to have just enlarged the scale of the ring to compensate) :
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On 19/01/2020 at 20:13, bigjarofwasps said:
...As you can see this chap is wearing two 1902 Coronation Medals as well as the 1887/1897 Jubilee Medal...
13 hours ago, Alan Baird said:...What if.......................the third medal [Metropolitan Police Coronation medal for 1902] and which appears to be separately attached to his tunic, is actually the ''Silver Metropolitan Police Coronation medal for 1902'' Only 57 of these silver medals were issued and only to individuals of the rank of Superintendents and above. If the medal belonged to his father, that could explain why he was wearing the medal. This Coronation medal does look much brighter in the photograph compared to the other example which definitely would have been the bronze example...
For what it's worth, my thinking is along similar lines to Alans, but with a somewhat different conclusion.
I have taken the original detailed shot of the medals and tried to take out the worst of the distortion due to the angle they are worn at. There is still some, particularly on the vertical plane, but it makes life a little easier for measuring the diameter of the planchets of the medals at least. I have attached it below.
The first is clearly the 1887 Jubilee Medal with 1897 clasp, no doubt there. The planchet diameter of this is 36mm. Using this as a scale when the picture is altered it is clear that the third medal appears to match this perfectly in terms of the diameter of the planchet. This would make it the 1902 Coronation Medal to me as this also had a planchet diameter of 36mm (and freshly issued/polished bronze is just as shiny as any silver medal).
However, in comparison the planchet of the centre medal comes up slightly undersize on a vertical plane (perhaps 33 or 34mm if I am generous) versus maybe 30 or 31mm on the horizontal (if this medal had a swivel suspender as with both the 1887/1897 and 1902 medals this difference may be due in part to it slightly twisting to the viewers left and consequently appearing narrower).
It is well known in medal collecting circles that most older copies of medals tend to come up slightly smaller than originals (generally due to them being cast from moulds taken from an original and suffering shrinkage accordingly).
If the second medal is not simply something different but similar to the 1902 medal, I wonder if the second medal was not simply a copy of one? Perhaps there was some delay or such between Sergeant Bradley being issued his actual medal and as he was entitled to wear it he made other arrangements? Then when he received his actual medal he had himself proudly photographed wearing the real thing alongside his copy that was already mounted?
More speculation I'm afraid...
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2 hours ago, Dave Wilkinson said:
It is a Warrington Borough Police lapel/epaulette badge.
Thanks for that, that would make perfect sense.
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I thought I would give this another bump. I am now working on Metropolitan Police kit for both WW1 Special Constabulary and regular WW2 kit. Looking for some insignia to finish off both tunics, in particular:
WW1 - Black horn KC buttons with the pie-crust edging (illustrated below). In particular the approx. 16mm diameter pocket sized ones.
WW2 - Chromed/silver/white metal letters for the epaulettes and collars. For the epaulettes, separate letters M and P. For the collar, letter H's. Ideally should be about 20mm or so tall. Also looking for a few more KC chromed/silvered Metropolitan Police buttons, especially the approx. 16mm diameter pocket sized ones.
If you have anything of these that you'd like to part with let me know.
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I recently purchased this WW2 era Police jacket on Ebay. The buttons are Cheshire Constabulary with the PoW feathers, but the epaulettes have a badge I haven't been able to identify, a shield with six rampant lions on. I believe Cheshire Constabulary should be a matching badge of the PoW feathers. Does anyone recognize who this is for please?
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For what it's worth, I don't believe it is an original 1880's jacket as there are a couple of stylistic features that to me would put it later. However, those could maybe at a pinch fit with say a c.1900/01 jacket or within a few years, and if stocks of buttons were being used up or an old hand held onto his older style as long as possible that could make sense.
Some posters my recall my thread on the subject of the period kit below:
One of the key differences between the later dress tunics which are often used to represent Ripper period jackets is the cuffs. The later dress jackets almost always have plain box cuffs, sometimes faux French/barrel cuffs. In the late 19th/early 20th century period they should have V or lancer cuffs - exactly as here. That to me is a strong piece of evidence in its favour. And I would happily buy jackets like that at £15 all day long.
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23 hours ago, G Hanson said:
Thanks Mike & Andrew for your comments.
I am away this weekend but will try and get some interior shots posted as soon as.
Andrew, thanks for the tip on the buttons. Unfortunately, the seller is all out of QVC horn buttons so if you could part with some of yours I would be hugely grateful.
The buttons on the tunic are identical on the front with the majority marked as “English Made” apart from 1 which appears to have a makers name which is illegible.
PM sent :-)
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What an excellent find, and a rare survivor that I'm sure is making a lot of faces envious on screens around the world. Is it possible for you to post a few more images of the interior, as I for one would be very interested to see just how similar and different these early jackets are to the later dress ones that often get used as Victorian tunics.
As to replacement buttons, I highly recommend:
http://www.goldenagebuttons.co.uk/lists/Police.htm
Metropolitan (Type 2). ”Metropolitan Police” in buckle around QVC
Horn, one-piece convex, 25 mm. £2.50
Although if you're looking to get exact matches I might have one or two. What maker/style should they have on the back?
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It is worth pointing out that it could equally be the ribbon for the 1914 Star, as it is identical to that of the 1914-15 Star (and quite likely a better contender given the officers previous military service and high rank).
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15 hours ago, Nightbreak said:
...Perhaps it was originally a George III that was changed to a IV, the way the narrow right arm of the V comes in compared to the left, but that's mere speculation...
Wide left arm against narrow right arm is the standard way to do a V in Roman numerals, eg:
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Inniskilling Fusiliers cuff rank tunic
in Great Britain: Militaria: Badges, Uniforms & Equipment
Posted · Edited by ayedeeyew
No need to apologise Will, your description of the marking and in particular the location being in the shoulder made it clear it was one of these typically off-the-peg tunics made available to officers through the War Department as I mentioned earlier. And clearly not "put there by the recipient" 😉 It's a gorgeous find and all the rarer for it.
Do you have any other shots of the cuff rank? From the first shot it looks like the owner may have been promoted from Lieutenant to Captain, hence one mismatched "pip" where he had the rank updated. The marks of sewing on the left cuff are likely from where a "Wounded Stripe" was once fixed as this is the exact location they should be worn, eg:
Army Order 204. 6/7/16
...the following distinctions in dress will be worn on the service dress jacket by all officers and soldiers who have been wounded in any of the campaigns since 4th August, 1914:-
'Strips of gold Russia braid, No.1, two inches in length, sewn perpendicularly on the left sleeve of the jacket to mark each occasion on which wounded.
In the case of officers, the lower end of the first strip of gold braid will be immediately above the upper point of the flap on cuff...