A BRITISH MILITIA HELMET ?

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen,

while tidying up my computer files, I came across pictures of a helmet that belongs to a friend back in Ireland, the item was in the possession of her father who passed away a short time ago.

I think its related to a Militia Regiment, but stand open for correction.

Kevin in Deva.

[Riley1965]

Kevin,

I have no idea what it was for. I just Love it Rarely do I get to see such. I look forward to the answer.

Doc

[Kev in Deva]

more pictures, its in remarkable good shape.

Thanks Doc,

Kevin in Deva

Edited November 1, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Close up of the chin strap and "rose" whatyamacallit thingy, and the spiky bit

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

It seems like a little leather retaining tab is missing (at the 6 o'clock position) and apart from being without its storage box seems to be complete.

Kevin in Deva.

[TerryB]

I am sorry but this looks like a "parts" helmet to me. Material should be dk. blue/black, not the experimental white that was worn by a few selected regiments in the late 1800's

Fittings are for a volunteer helmet. The Militia wore brass like their parent regiment, the volunteers wore white metal. It has a reinforcing strap down the back which is for officers, but there is no metal edging on the peak which was also prescribed for officers. The plate itself is suspect as this "stag on a star" was a very popular reproduction a few years ago. If the plate is authentic, it would belong to the 1st Heretfordshire Rifle Volunteers which was formed in 1880. (pg 422, Kipling and King, Vol 1)

Presented as a whole, it just doesn't "add up."

TerryB

[Kev in Deva]

I am sorry but this looks like a "parts" helmet to me. Material should be dk. blue/black, not the experimental white that was worn by a few selected regiments in the late 1800's

Fittings are for a volunteer helmet. The Militia wore brass like their parent regiment, the volunteers wore white metal. It has a reinforcing strap down the back which is for officers, but there is no metal edging on the peak which was also prescribed for officers. The plate itself is suspect as this "stag on a star" was a very popular reproduction a few years ago. If the plate is authentic, it would belong to the 1st Heretfordshire Rifle Volunteers which was formed in 1880. (pg 422, Kipling and King, Vol 1)

Presented as a whole, it just doesn't "add up."

TerryB

Hallo Terry

thanks for your input, I do know for a fact the helmet has been in the possesion of the family for many years, my friends dad picked it up after leaving the Royal Navy after WW2 ended, He moved back to Ireland to live in a secluded village in County Mayo, and was not a militaria collector as such, (mad about books though)

The helmet is a Khaki colour, it appears very light because of the flash, (the pictures were taken about 9 years ago when I was in Ireland, then recently scanned to the computer) the parts seem to have been together for a long time, the spike has been removed and screwed into the inside while being bought into town for me to take pictures.

I live in Transylvania, Romania and have no chance to get my hands on the item for an even closer inspection (hopefully I will be in Ireland next year on holiday.)

Kevin in Deva.

[TerryB]

Kev in Deva.....any weird looking Counts lurking about?

With that provenance, it is possibly a foreign service helmet which has been "added to" by some former collector, or possibly used as a theatrical piece. Since the plate is that old, long before the restrikers made their greedy appearences, it is probabably authentic and quite rare. The reinforcing strap on the rear looks as though it was an add-on hpwever, since there is no like binding on the peak. Khaki service helmets had no reinforcements of anykind for officers. They were found only on the home service helmets. The helmet furnishings, rosettes, chin-chain and spike appear to be authentic.

Whatever it is, the parts alone should be worth someting.

TerryB

[Kev in Deva]

Kev in Deva.....any weird looking Counts lurking about?

With that provenance, it is possibly a foreign service helmet which has been "added to" by some former collector, or possibly used as a theatrical piece. Since the plate is that old, long before the restrikers made their greedy appearences, it is probabably authentic and quite rare. The reinforcing strap on the rear looks as though it was an add-on hpwever, since there is no like binding on the peak. Khaki service helmets had no reinforcements of anykind for officers. They were found only on the home service helmets. The helmet furnishings, rosettes, chin-chain and spike appear to be authentic.

Whatever it is, the parts alone should be worth someting.

TerryB

Hallo Terry

Again thanks for your input with regards this mystery helmet, with regards the "Counts" Ha! Ha! Ha! they are all sleeping off the excess of last nights party, strange as it seems, Bucharest, Sigisoara, Tagu Mures, and a few others dark locations (well it was night-time! had lots of "Counts", "Witches", "Mummys & Daddys" etc... but most seem to have American accents, no real garlic breath amongst them

Why somebody would pay such good dosh, to fly here for a one-night party is beyond me

Kevin in Deva,

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Kevin

I have to agree with Terry that it is a "parts helmet"

1. It has 6 seams which means it is a Foreign Service Helmet not a Home Service Helmet

2. The leather edge binding supports this as does the Khaki colour

3. The back strap does, indeed, seem to be an add-on and a very bad one at that, as it does not line up with the centre top of the helmet and should terminate roughly an inch before the leather headband at the interior back of the helmet

4. The cross piece which holds the spike was not used on the Foreign Service Helmet rather on the HSH only and should have a rose at the end of each of the 4 arms (Colonial, irregulars &c may have had such a pattern as this but I have not seen one).

5. The FSH had a simple dome or an acanthus leaf design base to accommodate the spike.

6. The badge is, as Terry says, for the 1st Heretfordshire Rifle Volunteers and it's an interesting side note that it has no crown to the top (correct but unusual).

7. The chinchain and rosette attachments are for volunteers

Stuart

PS. Here is my Northumberland Fusiliers Volunteers Home Service helmet. The fittings are silver it's just a bad photo (I've got to redo all of my helmets)

[Stuart Bates]

A better photo of the Northumberland Fusiliers helmet.

Stuart

[Kev in Deva]

A better photo of the Northumberland Fusiliers helmet.

Stuart

Hallo Stuart,

thanks for the information with regards the helmet and the links, (the first one didnt work but on the second it was fine).

I copied and highlighted your picture, maybe all you need to do is the same, which will save the hassle of re-photographing everthing

Your helmet looks good nay, great

What I love about this forum is the wealth of knowledge held by members and their willingness to share,

You can always learn something new here.

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Kevin,

no I am going to re-photgraph all of my collection using a far superior camera to the original and better techniques for taking and editing the results.

The helmet plate of your helmet is rare, to say the least, and must be worth a considerable amount as it's very hard to believe that copies of such an obscure badge would reap any worthwhile benefit to fakers (but maybe obscurity is why they would do it)!

And yes, I have only been a member of GMIC for a month but have learnt so much, it makes such a difference to have such input from forum members rather trying to solve every puzzle by oneself.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Kev,

on further inspection of the photos I think I may be wrong in saying that it has 6 seams, can you determine from the original photos exactly how many seams there are? The HSH had only 4, are you sure the colour is khaki and not grey?

American cork helmets, some manufactured in Britain, had only 4 seams.

Off we go again.

Stuart

[Peter_Suciu]

on further inspection of the photos I think I may be wrong in saying that it has 6 seams, can you determine from the original photos exactly how many seams there are? The HSH had only 4, are you sure the colour is khaki and not grey?

American cork helmets, some manufactured in Britain, had only 4 seams.

I can't tell from the photos either whether this is four of six seams. If this is four seams these are in a different location from the American cork helmets. Those seams were at the front and back and directly at the sides.

However, looking at the liner and the location of the seams, this helmet is similar in shape to a French or Italian sun helmet!

Finally, if it is British I would weigh in that it was common for American troops to transfer their Blue Cloth Helmet parts to their White Summer Helmets, despite regulations against doing such a thing. So I'm just throwing it out there that it is possible the soldier who owned this helmet may have started the process. Possible he transfered the plate and/or spike. The rest could have been added by someone trying to "complete" the helmet.

[Graham Stewart]

I'm by no means a collector/researcher of helmets, but would say don't write-it off as not being genuine, even if cobbled together as an other ranks helmet.

My reasons behind this are that when dealing with uniforms/head-dress to Volunteer Rifle Corps you have to remember these Corps paid for their uniforms and badges by members subscribtion, the War Office paid for nothing other than the supply of rifles and accoutrements. It's not until 1881 and the Cardwell reforms that you find V.R.C.'s being supplied at public expense.

Many Volunteer units would have used local military outfitters to supply them with uniforms and cost would have been all important, especially if the unit was not large, nor had wealthy members. As an example some years ago when visiting the D.L.I. Museum, I was shown a note by the Curator regarding the change in headress in 1881. A letter was sent from the commanding officer of the 1st Durham Fusiliers Militia, who under the 1881 reforms had become the 4th Bn, Durham L.I., to the C.O. Northumberland Light Infantry Militia: The C.O. was offering to sell their Fusilier racoon skin caps to the Northumberland Light Infantry Militia, who had become the 3rd Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, which would replace the shako's currently being worn.

The racoon skin caps would have had to have been reworked to take a socket and the red and white horse hair plume of the Northumberlands, as the Durham Fusiliers never wore one. Sadly there was no further note to tell of the outcome of this offer, but I am certain that these expensive items of headwear did infact make their way further north.

I've also been looking at period photo's of Volunteer Corps and would say that in a couple of cases there are some H.S. helmets that look a little dodgy i.e. they don't have the elegence of the one we're familiar with.

On another note many years ago some regimental bands decided to do away with the No.1 dress cap for bandsmen and there was yearning for the H.S. helmet to be worn. Sadly these were no longer produced, but one band, I think it was the Glosters, decided to have Policemens Helmets converted to give the band a more presentable look. I also believe the Devon & Dorsets adopted the white F.S. Helmet for their band.

Anyway just a thought or two on the subject.

Graham.

[Peter_Suciu]

I'm by no means a collector/researcher of helmets, but would say don't write-it off as not being genuine, even if cobbled together as an other ranks helmet.

Good points. And that is why I did weigh in about the American practices as well.

The problem with all these helmets is that it is just too hard to say for sure. Too many of the parts were available for decades as surplus. Helmets were passed down. It is a unique piece none the less, and I would leave it as is for now. I see no reason to discard it either.

[Stuart Bates]

The Dragoon Guards and Dragoons had a spike as an alternative to the plume holder to the top of their helmet. The cross-piece that held the spike or plume holder had no roses to each of the 4 arms so maybe this is the source of the "unusual" cross-piece.

The spike was rarely worn on the helmet but was "fitted to the officers' FSH of the 13th Hussars during the mid 1870s. The spike was also fitted to a similar pattern helmet worn by the rank and file of the 4th Dragoon Guards whilst in India c. 1895/96." David JJ Rowe Head Dress of the British Heavy Cavalry p62. The spike is however from the normal infantry HSH or FSH as the cavalry one had a small rounded ball below the spike.

Stuart

Edited November 2, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Looking at the rear arm of the cross-piece it would appear that the hook for the chinchain is not attached, as it should be for the infantry version, and this adds weight to my suggestion of the cross-piece being a heavy cavalry one. However, I am definitely not going to try it out on my helmets.

Stuart

[Graham Stewart]

Stuart,

Pleased you mentioned cavalry, as I'm almost certain that I've seen an illustration or photo of a Yeomanry unit wearing a helmet not unlike this one but plumed instead of spiked.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

The Norfolk Yeomanry had a beautiful FSH helmet 1901-1904 for full-fress wear. It had a gilt spike on an acanthus leaf base with a dark blue pagri with (I think) 12 gold braid vertical strips around the pagri. A truly magnificient helmet.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Hey Kevin

what did you do to my photo to improve it? It looks much better.

Stuart

[Kev in Deva]

Hey Kevin

what did you do to my photo to improve it? It looks much better.

Stuart

Hallo Stuart,

with regards your picture, I first copied it to "My Pictures" Folder then opened with "Microsoft Picture Manager", then you have the option of playing around with the "Brightness and Contrast Settings," and the "Advances Settings" (by the way I use the XP version of Microsoft)

When you get the look you like just use "Save" or "Save As."

It is a simple tool to use, and a better result than simply using the "Auto Correct", which can go from one extreme to the other.

With regards the seams in the helmet there are 6 in number.

Kevin in Deva

PS Close up of the rear hook.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Stuart Bates]

Thanks for the information on the way you cleaned up my picture. The 6 seams is good as it makes the helmet a Foreign Service one.

As to the rear hook it should be an integral part of the rear arm of the cross-piece. This does not appear to be the case on your helmet and explains why the strap is off centre. When my battery is charged I'll take a photo of the back of one of my helmets.

Stuart

Edited November 3, 2006 by Stuart Bates

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Stuart

I dont think the hook is off centre but the metal strip running there might be off*, I attach another picture I cropped from the large back view, please take a look.

Opps! on a previous post a question was asked with regards the colour, Kahki or Grey?, definately Kahki in colour.

*What might have contributed to this is the distortion of the helmet shape, being somewhat oval in shape due to improper care in storage.

Kevin in Deva

Edited November 3, 2006 by Kev in Deva