Imperial Navy Presentation Dagger

[John Burchell]

Here is a dagger which I have an opportunity to purchase. I am not knowledgeable on German daggers so am researching the piece to learn more about it, before making a decision.

So far I understand this to be an Imperial Navy dagger or dirk, in particular, a presentation piece - given the inscription on the Damascus steel blade: "Thiele s/l. Hildebrand".

The length of the blade is 8-7/8 inches; the overall dagger drawn from the sheath 13-7/8 inches; the scabbard alone 11-1/8 inches and the overall dagger in the scabbard 16-1/8 inches.

There is no maker mark, however, there is some lettering on one side of the blade where it is thicker near the crossguard, much of which is illegible except for the final word ".....Kiel".

The pommel is of the closed-crown variety. The grip appears to be genuine ivory exhibiting age-toning and hairline cracks, and it has tightly-wrapped twisted silver wire completely intact.

The brass scabbard has a lightning-bolt pattern with rope-style mounts and rings.

As the ivory grip seems to sit quite firmly in place once the pommel cap is removed, I have not taken this apart to examine the tang, for fear of doing some harm to the grip or wire wrap (I do not yet own this piece).

My research led me to a thread on the WAF which listed KM Eichenlaubtraeger that included the name of August Thiele 26/08/1893 - 31/03/1981. Given his date of birth he would have been 21 years-of-age at the outbreak of WW1 and could well have re-enlisted and served during WW2, which leads me to wonder if this was the Thiele whose name appears on the blade.

As well, I found a thread on the WAF where Michel posts an Imperial U-Boat badge that has the name "A. Thiele" scratched on the back, as well as his rank of "U. Ob. Matrose" (Obermatrose or Gefreiter per Rick Research). I am wondering if this is the same person.

Can anyone please add to my knowledge and understanding of this dagger:

- is it a so-called M-1890 model?

- could it possibly be a Cadet dagger or dirk?

- given the blade length, is it probable that it has been shortened?

- from the Imperial Navy Ranklist can Thiele and Hildebrant be identified?

- what would be a reasonable, current market price to pay for such an item?

Thank you in advance for any comments and feedback.

John

[Guest Rick Research]

Presentation items like this, in my research experience, were given between equals-- usually officer candidates graduation present sort of gifts.

I find no naval Thieles who were contemporaries of Hildebrands.

Another problem with these is that one never knows who was the giver and who was the recipient, since "s/l" is about as often "FROM his dear" as "TO his dear." (Often the only way to tell with army examples is when the two names served in different arms, and the sword thus identifies which was which, or the recipient'sinitials are engraved elsewhere or the like.)

I'd say one of these must never have served long in the imperial navy. I have no sources before 1905.

Without initials or a date, this is hopeless. Both names are JUST common enough to be able to say that there were half a dozen or more potentials for each name, but nobody who seems to match up at the same time. Obviously this was NOT a graduation present, and without that "chronological context" we have nothing to go on.

[John Burchell]

Thank you very much for your feedback, Rick. I understand the dilemma regarding missing date and initials or other provenance.

Perhaps others knowledgeable about Imperial Navy daggers, per se, can contribute answers to my other questions, please?

[Stogieman]

I don't think you can determine anything regarding authenticity of the piece with these photos. I would want to see many, many more and much larger/more detailed images before I dropped a dime on this piece!!

[John Burchell]

Thanks Stogieman. Here are some additional pictures made by scanner which I hope will be satisfactory for further assessment. If particular views are required, please advise and I will try to supply them. Thanks. John

Edited November 7, 2006 by John Burchell

[John Burchell]

More:

[John Burchell]

More:

[John Burchell]

Having further pursued my research on this dagger I would like to update accordingly. The very extensive 1999 publication by Thomas T. Wittmann, "Exploring the Dress Daggers of the German Navy" has provided a wealth of information of both photographic examples and text. I have also received additional opinion from collectors with specific knowledge of Imperial Navy daggers which I share with you below.

The item pictured above is an original dagger in the 1890 Cadet Pattern which was adopted for officers in 1901. It would appear that this specific example is one of those produced in shorter lengths after 1902. Given the genuine "maidenhair" damascus blade and the lettering present on the side of the ricasso, it would appear to have been produced by the firm of Cark Eickhorn for the retail outlet store of "Aug. Luneburg, Kiel".

The dedication reads in versioned translation: "Thiele to his good friend Hildebrand", which would indicate that Hildebrand wore the dagger. Taking into consideration the comments from Rick above, this point may be considered debatable.

Additional input and comments from forum members is welcome and will be appreciated. Thanks!

Edited November 15, 2006 by John Burchell

[John Burchell]

Based upon the dagger inscription, here is an outline of the most likely pedigree of this dagger:

Quote

....The presenter of the dagger Georg Thiele was born on May 11, 1880 and entered the service in 1896, most likely as a cabin boy as he was only 16 years old. His last rank of Korvette Kapitane was obtained March 22, 1913. On the first of October 1914 Thiele was named as Chief of the 7th Torpedo Boat Half Flotilla. 17 days later he was killed when his ?S119? struck a mine off of the coast of the Netherlands. The Third Reich destroyer ?George Thiele? was named in his honor. This destroyer was launched in 1935 and was sunk April 13, 1940 at Rombaksfjord.

The wearer of the dagger was Walter Hildebrand. He was born May 1, 1873. He entered the navy on April 1892 and achieved his final wartime rank of Kapitane zur See on May 31 1917. He later was promoted to the rank of Rear Admiral on December 1, 1921. Hildebrand died February 27, 1923. His record was:

November 1914 1st officer ?Preussen?

August 1915 Commander of the ?Thetis?

January 1916 Administrative purser

February 1917 Commander of the ?Nurnberg?

January 1918 Commander of the?Kaiserin?

At Wars End Commanded the ?Hindenburg?....

Unquote

I liked it before purchasing it, and I like it a lot more now.

Regards,

John

[Guest Rick Research]

I do not think you can attribute it that way, with the differences in ages (presents were awkward between un-equals) and no known common denominator.

[John Burchell]

Thanks for noting and responding, Rick, as I do value and respect your opinion on such matters. Please consider this further detail which I hope helps to explain the above interpretation.

As I understand it "....There is no exact crossover in the Imperial Rank list or even pre-war lists back to 1910. However, before 1910 these two officers were the only active officers with these names other than a retired medical doctor Thiele who retired before 1900. During the time between 1906 and 1910 Georg Thiele was serving at the Naval Academy at Kiel and Hildebrand was serving with the naval administration in Berlin....[it is felt] that it was during this time that a relationship developed between these two naval officers and the dagger was exchanged as a true gift of friendship...." and that "...the dagger was presented between 1906 and 1910....by Georg Thiele."

Given the facts that there are no first names or dates associated with this dagger one cannot, of course, be 100% certain of these officers being the ones named on the blade, although the dates of birth and entry into naval service are not all that disparate.