EK 1939 Pictures of 1939 EK I,II with packet, and 1939 spange? and questions

[armybrat43]

Here are pics of the EKs I mention in my earlier post reguarding a pin repair. I also have included a picture of a 1939 spange? I (I think that is what they are called). I'm wondering if the spange is original or not. It came with the WW1 cross and the cross is beyond a doubt original. The EKII is also original with maker mark 25 stamped on the ring. The packet I'm not to sure about, I feel it's a repro. The EKII and packet were given to me along with the EKI missing it's pin and hook. My wife purchased The EK II and packet from a well known dealer who claims the cross and packet came from a soldiers estate. Quoted below is what was in the dealers discription of the iron cross 2nd class and packet. The EK I missing it's pin she purchased from someone else. The 1939 "spange", I have had for many years, but have not come across one with the clasp this one has on it. The back is hallmarked with a "800". The pictures of the medals are a litle dark and shadowy. I usually take pictures in the direct sunlight, but today that is not possible.

"We now offer a true collector's piece. This 1939 German Iron Cross second class maker marked # 25 with ribbon and award packet !! The iron cross is three part construction having two silver frames and solid iron magnetic black core. Both frames and core are graded X fine to near mint in condition. The ribbon is correct 1939 issue and came with the EK2 in the paper award packet. The maker number 25 was issued by the Ldo in 1941 to the manufacturing firm of AREITSGEMEINSCHAFT der GRAVEUR, Hanau, GERMANY. Under the strict guidlines as ordered by Adold Hitler. The # 25 is a very rare maker number. The ribbon and the packet and Iron Cross come direct from Dresden, Germany as found at the estate auction of Carl Ludwig Honniger. Honninger served in the German Wehrmacht from 1940 until 1945. He won his Iron Cross second class and Osten-Front the medal in Russian in 1943. "

My wife would not tell me the price she paid for it so I do not know. Any opinions about these medals is very much welcomed. I collect WW2 german militaria of all sorts so I do not claim to be a expert in collecting the Iron Cross.

Edited December 26, 2006 by armybrat43

[armybrat43]

Here goes with pic attachments

[armybrat43]

Sorry about having to post pics this way, but I have resized the pics to the smallest setting. The ring is marked with a "25"

Edited December 26, 2006 by armybrat43

[armybrat43]

Back of EKII and packet

[armybrat43]

WW1 EKII with spange

[armybrat43]

Spange back

Edited December 26, 2006 by armybrat43

[armybrat43]

close up of hallmark

[armybrat43]

Here is the front of the 1938 EKI (sorry had to resize even smaller

[Guest Darrell]

Hi mate. Thanks for posting.

Unfortunately it appears most of what you show are poor cast fakes.

The only thing that may be ok is the WW1 and the WW2 EK2s. But the rest posted are bad including the packet. Sorry.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Darrell

[armybrat43]

spange front

[armybrat43]

Darrell

Thanks for the info, I had my doubts about the spange and the EKI without the pin. The main reason was the way the pin and hook was missing. It looked to clean a break and also looked intentional. I think she said something about sending the EKI back because the dealer claimed it to be original. The spange and WW1 EK were given to me a long time ago so no invest lost on it. maybe others can learn from the fake items

Edited December 26, 2006 by armybrat43

[Riley1965]

Darrell,

So that I know, What is wrong with the packet? Also, is the spange okay? If not...Why? I need to learn this stuff.

Doc

[Guest Darrell]

Darrell,

So that I know, What is wrong with the packet? Also, is the spange okay? If not...Why? I need to learn this stuff.

Doc

Doc, as far as the packet ... look at post #97 and below here:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ght=EK2+Packets

The spange is a very poor cast fake. Looks to be made of lead.

[Guest Darrell]

Actually here is a link to a more exact match:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ead.php?t=96793

[Riley1965]

Darrell,

I see the the problem with the spange. I'm having problems with the packet. I see a difference in paper color but to me the printing is the same except that one has faded printing.

Doc

[armybrat43]

I believe the problem with the packet is that it has a left hand fold on the back (where the paper tab folds over ) when it should have a right hand fold, and also it is not maker marked.

Darrell

The EKI that is missing the pin also does not have a magnetic core, the other 2 EKs do. That was also something that caused me to have doubts about the EKI. Also, have there been any EKs that have brass core type fakes spotted?

[Guest Darrell]

Darrell

Also, have there been any EKs that have brass core type fakes spotted?

Now that's a good question. Fake EK1's with "real" brass cores? If so, not that I've heard of. Most fake "non-magnetic" Eks are made of lead or some other cheap alloy. Do you have a means of measuring the weight of the EK1? Likely is is heavier than it should be. However, this one isn't even close. I'm just curious what it weighs.

[armybrat43]

Darrell

No means of measurement for something this small here. But you are correct about the fake cross being heavier then my other 2 are. We have contacted the individual who sold the EKI as a original item. I believe that he may have just been mistaken about the originality of the item. But I will know for sure when he responds. According to my wife, in his listing he states to have several more EKs. If I find he is knowingly selling fakes as originals I will post the sellers handle here so others can watch out for him.

Edited December 26, 2006 by armybrat43

[Guest Darrell]

Is the EK1 one piece? Or can you see the seam along the edge?

[armybrat43]

Darrell

Here is a picture of one of the edges of the fake EKI

[Bishop]

Hmm.. that EK1 looks kinda rough, maybe it's a "field made"

version!?

Perhaps the original owner (recipient) thought that the secure fittings were

not good enough for the badge, so had them removed. And wait until he gets

a chance to fit a proper ones.

Or, they were just not there at the first place.

("Field made" means improvise with whatever they got left, sometimes the quality

can be extremely low)

But most likely possible can be the previous owner removed the fittings, because

both pin and hook were badly damaged.

Anyway, it's still a good score, a part of history. Thanks for sharing!

Happy new year, sir ~

Bishop

[armybrat43]

Hmm.. that EK1 looks kinda rough, maybe it's a "field made"

version!?

Perhaps the original owner (recipient) thought that the secure fittings were

not good enough for the badge, so had them removed. And wait until he gets

a chance to fit a proper ones.

Or, they were just not there at the first place.

("Field made" means improvise with whatever they got left, sometimes the quality

can be extremely low)

But most likely possible can be the previous owner removed the fittings, because

both pin and hook were badly damaged.

Anyway, it's still a good score, a part of history. Thanks for sharing!

Happy new year, sir ~

Bishop

Acording to Darrell this EK I is a fake, now I'm a little confused, or are you just joking? And a happy new year to you to

[DavidM]

Hmm.. that EK1 looks kinda rough, maybe it's a "field made"

version!?

Perhaps the original owner (recipient) thought that the secure fittings were

not good enough for the badge, so had them removed. And wait until he gets

a chance to fit a proper ones.

Or, they were just not there at the first place.

("Field made" means improvise with whatever they got left, sometimes the quality

can be extremely low)

But most likely possible can be the previous owner removed the fittings, because

both pin and hook were badly damaged.

Anyway, it's still a good score, a part of history. Thanks for sharing!

Happy new year, sir ~

Bishop

Hello

Whilst field made EKs do come up very occasionally, this is not one of them. If this were a field made piece it would never carry an 'L' mark.

L/19 is the marking for Ferdinand Hoffstatter of Bonn. I'm now going to stick my neck out on this one and say that whilst I agree that this cross looks extremely poor, I actually think it is a genuine piece, which may have been taken apart, or for some other reason split open and then re-assembled .

The beaded rim matches up to known original examples, as do the date numerals, swastika and the 'L/19' mark itself. An extremely poor conditioned item, and one which could well have been opened up and put back together, but, in my opinion, a genuine one.

Edited December 27, 2006 by DavidM

[Guest Darrell]

I can see where David is coming from. The thing that throws me off is the first reverse picture you showed above. Is there any way you can post a different picture of the reverse? Maybe in different light and plus take one at a different angle? What appears to be casting marks ... may not be ...

However, I still don't like what I see.

Edited December 27, 2006 by Darrell

[armybrat43]

This is getting very interesting and I'am learning a great deal, thanks to all who have replied. I have taken several more pictures in a differnt light and at differnt angles. Also, going back to the packet for the EKII. My wife emailed the individual she purchased the medal (EKII) and packet from. He ststes that the medal and packet were both bought from a estate of a german soldier (as listed in the first part of this thread) in 1968 in Dresden germany. And is more then willing to refund any money. And that the packet is original and was with the EKII.

Also a update from the individual who sold my wife the EKI. He is also willing to trade the cross or give a full refund. And also states that he had let several dealers in Saint Louis inspect the cross and that they validated it as being original.

Edited December 27, 2006 by armybrat43