2nd Dragoons Badge

[Michael NA]

I am a new member and have an interest in British Victorian campaign medals and images (cdvs, cabinet cards). I look forward to going through many of the topics on this forum and contributing if and when I can.

Recently, I have taken to putting some badges with other items to create a small display that might further illustrate the regiment. In looking at the 2nd Dragoons (Scots Grey), I came across this badge, which was described as being for use after Waterloo.

It is about 3 inches by 3 inches.

Can anyone comment on whether this is a badge used by the 2nd Dragoons and, if so, during what period.

Thank you.

Michael NA

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Michael,

the 2nd Dragoons wore a grenade device as a plume holder on their bearskin full-dress cap and an eagle with the battle honour Waterloo on other headdress etc.

Your badge seems to be part of a cap or sporran badge of perhaps the Queens's Own Highlanders (Seaforths and Camerons). Check out this site http://houseoflabhran.net/insignia.html and http://www.regiments.org/about/index.htm. You will notice that the device you show does not have the usual crown to the top which is why I say it may be one element of a multi-part device.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Stuart:

Thank you for your comments. I have attached scans of the plume holder badge that you mention as well as the back badge from a dealer's site. I have also seen the Eagle with Waterloo badge. In speaking to a long-time collector, he noted that this version of the bearskin badge was a rare variety and as he has collected the other highland regiments for many years. As you note, however, the thistle is a common theme in many of their badges. Being as large as it is, I am not sure if it could fit on a bonnet of a Cameron or Seaforth Highlander. Possible for the sporran. I will double check again and perhaps see if I get some comments from a curator from one of the museums that would have items to the regiment.

Again, thank you for you comments and the links.

Michael

[Michael NA]

Stuart:

Very nice helmet display. Not to suggest that swords or longarms are less impressive, but I can see how one of these would be a highlight of a display. Do you have to look to the UK for the early items?

Michael

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Michael,

do check with regimental museums, although you will get mixed results, from really quick responses to having to wait a week or two, to no response at all. I'm no expert on badges especially Scottish ones as I concentrate on English stuff but I do have a lot of reference books. No doubt you will post your findings but I am sure that you will get some good information from other members of the forum.

Most of my helmets were sourced in the UK although quite a few were bought here in Australia, but with the pound being so strong for so many years there simply aren't many dealers left and they don't have much if anything in stock!

Good luck with the "badge" and that first site I mentioned did describe the item as a sporran badge albeit with the crown.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

I just came across some divisional signs of the British Army for WWI and a simple thistle was the insignia of the 9th (Scottish) Division. This insignia was in existence until about 1945. Hope this helps.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Thank you Stuart.

This one is turning out to be a little more difficult then I thought it would be. I am trying to find an image of the Scots Grey's regimental guidon from the post-Waterloo era as I was told the thistle is one of the design features.

Michael

Edited March 23, 2007 by Michael NA

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

I got this from the Regiments site -

"The Greys formed part of Ponsonby's Brigade during the Waterloo campaign of 1815. On receiving the order to advance at Waterloo they charged to shouts of " Scotland for ever!" and many of the Gordon Highlanders are alleged to have grasped the stirrups of the Greys to keep up with them. In the charge 2,000 prisoners were taken and Sergeant Ewart of the Greys captured the "Eagle" of the 45th French Infantry. For their services in this campaign the Greys received Royal permission to bear on their guidon the badge of an Eagle and the word " Waterloo."

And here is something of interest. The 1857 to 1894 Dress Regulations specify a gilt thistle to be worn on the front of the bearskin cap. The Drs of 1822, 1834, 1846 and 1900 don't specify this.

Stuart

Edited March 23, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

this is the current standard of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (2Ds, 3DGs and 6DGs) and the badge of the Order of the Thistle was previously on the Scots Greys Guidon.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Stuart:

It appears you have solved this puzzle and have vindicated my friend who was insisting this was the bearskin badge of the 2nd Dragoons. He was offering this as I was looking to display a badge with a medal group from the period (1850-1870s).

The badge and the thistle in the centre of the current standard appear to be the same.

Thank you very much for all your time and effort.

Michael

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

I decided to look in the Dress Regulations to see if they had anything on the guidon and stumbled on the badge being for the bearskin cap. A bit of serendipity at play!

Glad to be of assistance.

Stuart

[Stuart Bates]

Hi Michael,

I was perusing the dealers' sites when I came across your badge on a Glengarry at Blunderbuss Antiques. You may like to ask them what regiment it belongs to.

http://www.blunderbuss-antiques.co.uk/shop...2352&phqu=1

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Stuart:

Thank you for the follow up comments. What makes this interesting is that the thistle appears to be incorporated in several different badges. The badge of the Royal Scots. for example, has the thistle as a theme. See the attached two piece badge. I am trying to locate a cdv or cabinet card of a Scots Grey officer wearing the bearskin with the badge.

Michael

Edited March 27, 2007 by Michael NA

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

I have bought several photos from the Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum so you might like to try the museum of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards. There is a company in the UK which has over 25,000 photographs for sale and their name is D P & G Publishing. The drawback with them is that they have no website, nor email address and don't give out their 'phone number so it's snail mail or nothing. If you want their address send me a PM.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Thank you Stuart. I will pm you about the address. In the interim, I will try to find an original cvd or cabinet card and will contact the regimental museum. I have been trying to pickup full uniform images and attach one of the 12th Lancers.

[Michael NA]

Attached is an image of a Scots Grey showing the Bearskin with the plume holder type badge.

[Michael NA]

CVD image 1863 of an officer of the 2nd Dragoon Guards.

[Michael NA]

As a follow up, I was advised that in the 1950s or early 60s a box containing about two dozen of these badges were located in the Scots Grey Band Store. It was later determined that they had originally been made to fit on the front of bearskin caps, presumably in the late 1850s, but it was not certain whether they were for the Band or for all members of the regiment. Apparently, the badges had been fitted to the Bandsmen?s music-pouches but it is uncertain when this happened or when they were removed.

I asked a friend who collects and researches sporrans among many other military items about whether my example was perhaps a pouch type badge. He stated that the reverse "croquet hoop" fittings were definitely head dress mountings and that pouch fittings would have been short screws with nuts.

So, it appears that the badge is 2nd Dragoons (Scots Grey) for the Bearskin and although authorized for use in the 1850s to 1890s, it might have seen little actual use on Bearskins. The search is to now locate a period image of the Bearskin with the badge.

Michael