Brian Wolfe Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 (edited) Hello All,Here is another specimen from my Japanese sword collection. The saya (scabbard) is the standard army issue and the handle and guard are of the Kyu-gunto style used during the period around the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05. The exposed length of the the blade is 19 inches and makes this length of blade a wakizashi. It may seem odd to see such a short blade in a saya of this length but there is a logical expanation. It was the practice of the time to allow officers to use a "family" blade in place of the regulation issued one. In this case the officer's family blade was the wakizashi. The wakizashi is the shorter of the two swords worn by a samurai, the longer one being the katana. I'll post one of those at another time. The hamon, or temper line, can easily be seen in the photos. This is an old blade from the early Edo (now Toyko) period c. 1650. The blade was made from a broken katana. This can be seen in the photo of the tip as the hamon clearly runs out through the tip of the blade. A wakizashi that was made originally as a short blade sword would have the hamon follow the curve of the tip and run out at the back edge. Below are the particulars of this sword. This hand made blade is unsigned.Shinto blade (1597-1780), early Edo period c. 1650, made in Bizen Province (present day Okayama Prefecture.Nihunto Suguta (blade shape): Shinogi ZukuriHamon (temper line): MidareMune (back edge of blade): IhoriNakago (tang shape): FutsuNakago-Jiri (tang tip); HaagariYasurime-mei (File marks): Taka-No-HaMakugi-ana (tang peg hole): oneKyu-gunto mounts c. 1904-05Saya (scabbard): SHin-gunto c. 1935, with single ashi (suspension mount).I hope you like the photos.Cheers Brian (Oh yes, regarding the "cheers face", playing with swords and beer don't mix, you may end up being known as stubby). Edited March 24, 2007 by Brian Wolfe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Here is a photo of the tsuka (hilt). The ray skin wraping can be easily seen , the wire has become losened over time but it is still there. You can see the European influence in the hilt of this sword. Up to 1861 the Japanese sword was of the typical samurai style. After the samurai life style was discouraged (after 1861) the Japanese Military looked to Europe (I believe France) to pattern her new Imperial Army and Navy after. The movie the "Last Samurai", while an insult to the history of Japan, shows this period and the turmoil of change.CheersBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Here is another view of the hilt, from the "business end" of the sword. Notice how the Japanese made the European style hilt their own with the addition of the cherry blossoms to the metal work.Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 Here is a close up of the tip. I hope you can see how the hamom runs out through the tip rather than along it and out the back edge. It would be nice if it didn't, as far as value is concerned. However, I think this is a good example of a well made blade being put back unto service after being broken. All in all this one sword has seen a lot of history. Starting in the classic samurai period of the 1650's, being broken and then repaired to be rehilted for the first modern battles of the 20th century during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-05. I often wonder if this sword was carried by it's owner during WW I and perhaps even into WW II. From the Classical Samurai Period to the end of WW II is a lot of history.I should last so long! CheersBrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I have a similiar sword that I had just acquired, hoping you might be able to provide some insight, I am trying a URL first, new to this so not expecting much <a href="http://smg.photobuck...5-48-13_233.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobuck...5-48-13_233.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 The blade like yours has no identification and it is comsetically in rough shape as it looks like some kids probably used it to cut brush, very sharp though. Bought it at a garage sale, the young gal stated her grandfather brought it back after WW2, hoping it is a genuine article and if feasible I would like to have the blade professionally restored to honor it's history, due to the cosmetic obscurity from the previous abuse it is hard to see if it has a hamon, (again new to this, forgive me if my terminology is incorrect) I can almost make it out on both sides but may be seeing more than is there, wishful thinking! Thanks in advance! (I can post more pictures if you like) I am very curious what the symbol is near the bottom (circle with a cross) I have not seen it on any other swords of this style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 The blade like yours has no identification and it is comsetically in rough shape as it looks like some kids probably used it to cut brush, very sharp though. Bought it at a garage sale, the young gal stated her grandfather brought it back after WW2, hoping it is a genuine article and if feasible I would like to have the blade professionally restored to honor it's history, due to the cosmetic obscurity from the previous abuse it is hard to see if it has a hamon, (again new to this, forgive me if my terminology is incorrect) I can almost make it out on both sides but may be seeing more than is there, wishful thinking! Thanks in advance! (I can post more pictures if you like) I am very curious what the symbol is near the bottom (circle with a cross) I have not seen it on any other swords of this style. Hello Kelly, I would indeed like to see more photos of your sword. I'm not sure what "circle with the cross" is unless it is the cherry blossom symbol found on the metal back piece on the handle which has two "taps" that extend onto the grip. As to having it professionally restored it can be a very costly process and not just anyone who says that can do this can actually do the work correctly. Not all blade damage is considered "fatal" but if the damage is really bad then it is not really worth the cost and money to send it to Japan for restoration. I've been told there are those in the US who can restore these blades but I don't know who they are, again, be very careful who you let do this. I'll rrespond to your PM a bit later. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Thanks for the response, picture 2 of 5, the emblem (circle) direcly above the blossom, from what I have seen in my whole 2 days of education on Japanese swords On the internet images I usually see some kind of family emblem made of nickel? on the non com officers swords the blossom pattern can be there but on a sword with this much detail which I believe to be a sword for say a major or colonel there is either the family token or absolutely nothing, it doesnt match any of the emblems I have been able find for families, (thought maybe they had it ingraved instead of the nickel emblem attached) so pretty curious for me. The blade has blemishes that appear to be very shallow and just on the very surface, I will take some more pictures and upload for you to view, I will notify you sir, thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I have uploaded more photos, blade looks like someone was cutting brush to me, has a couple of very small nicks in the blade, probably some children 13 of 21 looks like a dremel tool, really sad, hopefully worth restoring, not concerned so much about the value of the weapon, the historical value and the honor of the family that bore it would mean more, would love to be able to learn that history, this has been a plus plus as it is because I have alway been fascinated with Japanese culture, my gardens alway lean that direction, apreciating being able to learn more about their history and this blade has been that vehicle. Thank again. <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v134/WildBillGT/?action=view&current=2012-05-28_15-04-51_733.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/WildBillGT/th_2012-05-28_15-04-51_733.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I have uploaded more photos, blade looks like someone was cutting brush to me, has a couple of very small nicks in the blade, probably some children 13 of 21 looks like a dremel tool, really sad, hopefully worth restoring, not concerned so much about the value of the weapon, the historical value and the honor of the family that bore it would mean more, would love to be able to learn that history, this has been a plus plus as it is because I have alway been fascinated with Japanese culture, my gardens alway lean that direction, apreciating being able to learn more about their history and this blade has been that vehicle. Thank again. <a href="http://smg.photobuck...5-04-51_733.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobuck...5-04-51_733.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket" ></a> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hello Kelly, It makes me very happy to hear that anyone values an artifact more for its historic rather than monitary value. With the resent flood of unrealistic T.V. programs like Pawn Stars, who are using questionable "experts" and the long running Antiques Road Show it seems that most people want the dollars and cents of an artifact and the Devil take the historic value. Ok, you didn't need to hear my rant but it was free, though I suppose you get what you pay for in that respect. The symbol on the back strap has me wondering as well. I will go through my reference material later today and see what I can come up with. I seem to remember seeing this in one of the books I have but that could just be wishful thinking. Let me check and I'll get back to you on that matter. The blade, I agree, looks like someone was wacking away at brush, though even corn stocks will leave those marks. I would say that considering the age of the blade and the condition that it is a good candidate for retoration by an expert. These can be very valuable blades. Is the "tang" signed? The handle will come off easily to check. Warning, DO NOT remove any rust that may be found on the tang whether it is signed or not. Removal of the rust devaluates the blade both in dollars and cents as well as being an historic artifact. Die-hard collectors would no longer want the blade if you were to remove the rust, unless it was a very rare or desirable sword smith's name. Unsigned blades are not uncommon but that is not a completely bad thing either. Check to see if you can make out the Hamon (temper line) and see if it follows the edge all the way around to the very tip. Many of these shorter blades were made from damaged longer swords. If it has been shortened then the temper line will follow the edge until it gets to the tip and then keep going straight right out through the curve of the tip rather than following the edge right up to the back of the blade. Again this is not the end of the road for the blade as many were made from shortened blades and became treasured family blades handed down from generation to generations. The handle tells us it was carried during the Russo-Japanese War period. As far as modern Japan (post 1866) the Russo-Japanese War period is, in my opinion, the most interesting of the 20th century Japanese history. I hope to hear more from you in the near future. Do keep the members informed as to what you plan to do with the sword and the finished restoration, if you decide to go in that direction. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Hi Brian, I have uploaded some photos of the tang, of note is a plugged hole (brass it appears) right behind the Mekugi hole, possibly to take an existing blade to fit into this hilt? The hamon is pretty obscure right now, I will take a harder look. Really appreciate your time!! http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v134/WildBillGT/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 Hi Brian, I have uploaded some photos of the tang, of note is a plugged hole (brass it appears) right behind the Mekugi hole, possibly to take an existing blade to fit into this hilt? The hamon is pretty obscure right now, I will take a harder look. Really appreciate your time!! http://smg.photobuck...134/WildBillGT/ Hi Kelly, You are correct, the hole that was plugged had been there to accept the pre 1866 sword. It is common to also see "extra" holes for the same reason. I would suggest that you might use a light oil on the blade and then buff it by hand with a soft cloth to see if you can bring up the hamon enough to tell if this is an original wakizashi or a shortened katana. I don't think it as been mentioned that this blade would have been part of a set "back in the day" along with a katana. The katana would have been used for serious fighting and the wakizashi for a bit more utilitarian purposes. Though in tight places where the length of the katana would not allow its use the wakizashi would be put to the task. I have read that when serving in a castle, especially while on night guard duty within the castle itself that it was only the wakizashi that was allowed to be worn. Remember that this is a generalization as throughout the long history of pre-1866 Japan trends changed as time went on. However during the Edo period I beileve that only the wakizashi was worn within the castle while on night guard duty. Only the samuri were allowed to wear the two swords so there are probably many more katanas than wakizashis to have survived into modern times. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Hello Brian, I had been digging around on Nihonto about that emblem and hopefully got some good information, let me know what you think, I think it is the Shimanzo Mon.... "Hi Kelly. May be too late but here is some information. Fuller and Gregory 1996 describe the sword as a scarce 1875 pattern Army Field Officers grade, (Major, Lt-Colonel, Colonel) identified by the fully decorated backstrap. They go on to say," Quality varies according to owners' financial means and choice. The most common option was the addition of the owners' personal mon, (family badge) which is normally in the form of a small silver disc fixed to the backstrap. Alternatively one may be engraved directly on the backstrap or pommel top." Cheers" This is what my thoughts had been leaning towards, doesnt mean it is absolute but makes sense, I am looking around for a polisher, I may take it up to seattle for review as there is a company up there that brokers japanese swords... to see if it is a good candidate, I could not get those marks of by a simple rag and mineral oil (though now it is fully protected!) the tool marks if thats what they are are still there but when you run your finger over them or look down the blade it is smooth as a babies butt, I have to believe it is a good candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 Congratulations Kelly and well done on the research as well. As to the sword being an 1875 pattern, the more accurate description would be that the hilt is that pattern but the blade would be pre-1866 which should be even better news. Please keep us posted on your progress with the blade. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 The consensus on Nihonta seems to indicate possibly Shinto period 1600 to 1700 for the blade which of course would need verification ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 The consensus on Nihonta seems to indicate possibly Shinto period 1600 to 1700 for the blade which of course would need verification Interesting as I always thought the Shinto period was 1597 - 1780, though I would have put it in the Early Edo Perion of c.1650. I would think that 1650, seeing that Nihonta puts the Shinto Period as 1600 - 1700, would be a safe quess. Without a signiture the exact age is hard to determine. To me this time frame was the Golden Period of sword making and you should be quite happy to have a blade from that time and being fairly safe in thinking that it is of the Shimanzo clan. Some research in the Shimanzo clad may be interesting, but where to start I cannot say. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Being extremely uneducated on the subject I probably mispoke, maybe they were just stating during the shinto period but more precisly from 1600 to 1700? I want to express my appreciation for your time helping me understand what I have here, I have been investigating the polishing, I have saved this site and when I do, you folks can come along on the adventure, thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 I know there are several members who would be very interested in following the progress, thank you for offering to do this. Good luck on your project. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly C. Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hello Brian, no update yet on the Kyu Gunto, but just wanted you to know the bug bit me, recently purchased a beautiful Kai Gunto with a stainless blade in almost perfect shape at a gun show, when do the self help group sessions start?? I paid $400.00, think I really scored, I guess it all really just adds up to what the value is to the individual. Been a little dissapointed on the lack of really good information on the internet, I have learned that the ratio between Shin and Kai is about one in three because as you had stated alot of them ended up at the bottom of the ocean, that the stainless blade is for the corrosive element, (guess they can't all be ancestrial blades!) But the blade is in really good condition, the tang has arsenal markings which I wouldn't mind posting to see if yourself or some other folks are familiar with them. Now to find that Shin Gunto, the colonial swords, the....... One other note, I cleaned the blade with pure alcohol, havent dont the mineral oil yet, was a bit worried the procedure may be different with the stainless blade, should have checked before I even did the alcohol , I was showing it to a friend when before I could say dont touch the blade.. he wraps his oily mitts around it. Dadgummit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Kelly, I think you got a great deal indeed. There should be no problems with the way you are approaching the cleaning, these blades are fairly "forgiving". Regarding your friend, yep, it seems to be an instinct to touch the blade. I used to feel rather foolish to hand someone white gloves to put on before they looked at one of my blades, but not any more. Since no one seems to be able to "look" with their eyes without touching it's wear the gloves or you get get to see my swords. Well done Kelly and at a very sound price. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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