Photo Help

[Bear]

Hello,

I came across these two ambrotype photos and was hoping that someone here might be able to tell me some info about the insignia that is being worn.

thanks,

barry

[leigh kitchen]

Hussar or Royal HorseArtillery frogging on the man on the left - could you do a smaller photo of the man on the right please, it might improve the images of cap & collar insignia.

[Bear]

Thanks Leigh,

This is about the best I can do.

[Michael NA]

Below is an image I have of a group of Officers and Other Ranks of the Royal Artillery and Royal Horse Artillery, which I believe to be from the late 1850s perhaps early 1860s. Don't know if this helps Leigh or you with the id of the man on the left. If it is of the same time period, you man does not appear to match up with the RHA men in the image.

Michael

[Stuart Bates]

The man in the left image appears, at first, to be an officer of the 3rd Hussars (scarlet facings) which converted from Light Dragoons in 1861 (facing colour to the collar only from that year). However, The 1846 Dress Regulations (DRs) state a Prussian collar and 5 rows of gold buttons etc. This image shows 5 rows with olivets(?) and a round collar. Now the number of rows increased in about 1855 to 6 and was specified as such in the 1857 DRs, as was the rounded collar. I don't have the 1855 DRs but I understand that the 1857 mirrors that one in this respect.

So we have a mismatch between the number of rows on the breast and the shape of the collar. The scarlet to the cuffs is a mystery too. However, ...

The Light Dragoons wore a Hussar style jacket with 5 rows to the breast with collar and cuffs in regimental facings according to the 1857 DRs. The facings were scarlet in the case of the 4th Light Dragoons which also converted to Hussars in 1861 but whose facings changed to blue at that time. The fly in the ointment here is that the forage cap should have an embroidered peak but many examples exist of peakless caps, most notably one of a Lt Hutton, of the 4th LD, which is held in the National Army Museum.

I therefore plump for an officer of the 4th Light Dragoons pre-1861.

Stuart

Edited March 29, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[leigh kitchen]

The man on the right - the closest that I can get with that badge is the Black Watch or HLI (or predecessors), he's wearing collar dogs which may help with ID - I'll try the photo at different sizes on my usual dedsktop, see if anything's clearer,

Edited March 29, 2007 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

I'm struggling with this, particularly as it's pre my usual "cap badge" period.

1869 - 78 shako badge of the 74th Highlanders, 1881 HPC or glengarry badge of the Royal Scots (especially as the latter had an unvoided centre)?

One of the 3 or 4 patterns of glengarry badge worn by the Black Watch after 1878?

The closest I can get with the collar dogs is inward facing horses or tigers.

[Graham Stewart]

Not really sure about the one on the left, but the one on the right is wearing a "shell jacket" c.1856 pattern. The obvious thing is it's colour, which would appear to be white, which was usually worn in "drill order". Having said that this shell jacket has facing collar and cuffs, not usually seen in drill order, as both collar and cuffs are normally plain white in D.O., so it's quite possible that this could be a bandsman.

The badge in the forage cap is unusual as often only regimental numerals are displayed, apart from Fusilier/Light Infantry regiments which would use additional grenades/bugles. I personally can't see any collar badges, which weren't introduced until around 1874.

As to the unit, not a clue, but still nice to see.

Graham.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Graham Stewart

[Michael NA]

Here is a 42nd pre-Crimea. Similar badge shape as the man on the right.

Michael

[The Saint]

Barry,

I would say the man at right may be a Colonial Volunteer - Canadian ? He is wearing a dark belt where a regular would have worn a buff belt. He can't be from 60th (KRR) Foot nor Rifle Brigade who wore belts with snake clasp as the cap badge does not match. Thus my guessing.

The trooper at left is an Other Rank, as an officer usually wore his pouch and belt for such a photograph. He must check my files to see about the regiment.

Michael,

the Highlander is wearing a 1856 pattern doublet, so it can't be a pre-Crimea picture. Still very nice.

Eric

[Stuart Bates]

Eric,

the braid to the cuffs is far too elaborate to be a mere trooper and who can say what a soldier chose to wear for a photograph in the 1850s-1860s.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Eric:

In trying to id my image, I was able to work with the medal. It was felt this might be a pre-Crimea image as he is wearing a Long Service Good Conduct medal and information provided showed that there was only one decorated other rank of the 42nd immediately prior to the Crimea and in this time period:

Private D. McNab, 42nd Royal Highlanders

Crimea 1854-56, 1 clasp, Balaklava (846, 42nd Royal High?s.), regimentally engraved; Army Long Service and Good Conduct, V.R., large letter reverse, with steel clip and straight bar suspension (846 Pt., 42 R.H.), engraved, very fine. Private D. McNab enlisted into the Royal Highlanders on 13 August 1835 and was discharged 11 August 1857. His L.S. & G.C. was issued 11 May 1854 with a gratuity of ?5. McNab was also entitled to the clasp for Sebastopol.

Assuming it is McNab, it was thought that an image post 1855/56 should show both the Long Service and the Crimea and given that McNab was discharged in August 1857, the window of when the image would have been taken would be any where from 1854 when the Long Service was issued to prior to issue of Crimea to members of the 42nd. If the uniform is 1856, as you note, then we would be trying to find members of the 42nd not in the Crimea with a long service in the mid to late 1850s. Otherwise, we have McNab just before his Crimea was issued.

Re the photos above, it is not unlikely that person producing the image might have taken some liberty in presenting the image. For instance, in the McNab image I was advised "the image is a reverse one (look at the buttonholes)...it looks all right at first glance, as the medal was changed sides for the purpose of the photography - a common trick of the trade with 'types'." You can also see where the "buttons" were added.

Also, would the type of image process be relevant - for example would a red show as a lighter colour so that the man on the right is wearing something other than a white jacket.

Michael

[The Saint]

Stuart,

The cuff braid is without doubt the proper one for an Other Rank of Light Dragoon, 1855-1861. Other things that make me assume that he is an OR are the yellow colouring of the braid, where an officer would have gold, the peakless forage cap and the somewhat crudeness of the picture.

As for the unit, the 3rd Light Dragoon indeed seems correct.

Alternatively, it could be the Montreal Volunteer Cavalry, who wore an identical uniform (Ref : "The Canadian Campaign, 1860-70", Osprey Publishing). It depends on where this picture was found.

Michael,

The Crimea Medals were issued sometime in 1856 (exact date escapes me, I must check the Spink book), at a time when the troop wore the double-breasted Pat 1855 tunic/doublet (see : http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/crimea14.htm and http://www.btinternet.com/~james.mckay/crimea17.htm). So, in my opinion, the picture cannot have been taken prior the issue of the medal.

The single breasted Pat 1856 tunic/doublet was worn until the late 1860s-early 1870s, when replaced by another pattern.

Eric

[Stuart Bates]

Eric,

I must admit that when I first saw the image I thought an OR but the cuff braid just seemed too elaborate for an OR. As I said peakless caps were not unusual for officers but what concerns me most is the scarlet around the cuffs overlaying the braid. In illustrations that I have seen the scarlet cuffs were pointed and beneath the braid. Another mystery.

Stuart

Edited March 31, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[Graham Stewart]

Although taken much later c.1860, this photo of Patrick McHale, V.C., 5th Fusiliers, shows that scarlet within the jackets remains a mid-colour during this photographic process, therefore I'm still convinced the shell jacket is that as worn by bandsmen, with the addition of coloured facings on the collar and cuffs, whereas all of my illustrations show Drill Order as being plain white throughout.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

Eric,

having looked at the website which contains the photo and doing some more reading I agree with you that it is an OR. He would be of the 3rd, 4th or 14th Light Dragoons all of whom had scarlet facings and is pre 1861 when all of those regiments converted to Hussars. The website photos show the scarlet cuffs as being under the braid.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

The type of process used and how the image was prepared might affect how colours are represented. If the image of the soldier in the light jacket is an "ambrotype" vs an image on paper, then it is my understanding that a dark jacket might appear light. See below:

"The ambrotype is actually a glass negative that, backed with a dark material, appears to be a positive. The milky collodion highlights (that would appear black in a modern negative) are light and the unexposed dark areas show the dark backing to provide the shadows.With ruby glass ambrotypes the dark red glass acts as the backing.

Introduced in 1854, they were easier and cheaper to make than daguerreotypes. Ambrotypes were presented in the same style of bindings and cases as were daguerreotypes and replaced them in the 1850s.

A well made ambrotype may be a striking image but lacks the depth of a well made daguerreotype.

On the right is a 1/4 plate ambrotype by Mathew Brady. It is housed in a "flip case" where the image can be viewed from either side with the brown velvet on the inside of the covers serving as the dark backing. In the image on the far right we have placed a white card half way into the case to show the negative/positive effect."[end quote]

While it appears that the jacket in our image is light (too many ofher details are right -see hands), the above merely indicates that these types of images are dependent on how the image was prepared for presentation.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Michael NA

[Michael NA]

Eric:

If I recall correctly, the Crimea medals were first shipped to the Crimea in 1855. The image of the 42nd above shows a no clasp medal which appears to be the Long Service Good Conduct, which was issued to McNab in May, 1854 just before the Regiment left for the Crimea. I don't think this is an image taken while in the Crimea so that eliminates June to December of 1854, all of 1855 and to the middle of 1856 when the Regiment returned to the UK. As McNab was discharged in 1857 there is a very small window for the image to have been taken. For this to be McNab (who was the only decorated other rank in 1854) it must be either May 1854 before the Regiment left for the Crimea or sometime after and before he received his second medal, the Crimea. If the jacket is 1856, then I am not sure why it does not show both the earlier Long Service medal and the new Crimea medal. Bit of a puzzle.

I think I will go back and double check how many of the 42nd would have a Long Service Good Conduct medal during the period 1854 to 1860.

Michael

Thank you Stuart.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Michael NA

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

I think you meant your last post for Eric.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

I have added the full image of the 42nd as there might be other details to confirm whether the full uniform suggests 1856.

Michael

[Stuart Bates]

The jacket of the 42nd man is definitely not that of the Crimean war. The DRs of 1846 which were in force for the Crimean conflict state a "scarlet jacket, double-breasted, with two rows of uniform buttons, ten in each row, in pairs, or at equal distances".

I haven't yet got the next set of Dress regulations for 1855 but the 1857 DRs state a "scarlet jacket, single-breasted, with eight buttons at equal distances". Barthorp in "British Infantry Uniforms since 1660" states that the 1855 tunic/doublet changed in 1856 from double-breasted to single-breasted.

This means that the photo is post 1855.

Stuart

[Michael NA]

Found an image of the 42nd with the double breasted tunic and the Crimea medal. So, will have to do more research on the Long Service and who might have received one in the 1854-1860 period.

Michael

[Michael NA]

I am advised that the double breasted doublet came in about 1855/6 and was worn only for a short time as the buttons caused so much damage to the material. Either side of this period single breasted doublets would be standard for Highland Regiments. So, an image in 1854 of should be in single breasted doublet. I find in my material the attached image of the 42nd in 1852. Hard to see the uniform details but would appear to be single breasted.

If anyone has dress regulations from the early 1850's should be able to confirm. Thanks.

Edited April 1, 2007 by Michael NA

[Michael NA]

Stuart:

Other than 1846, would the next set of DR's be 1855?

Michael

[Stuart Bates]

Michael,

the 1846 DRs were followed by the 1855. I have a book produced by the National Army Museum whose subject is the Crimean War and it contains a photo of 3 soldiers of the 42nd wearing the double breasted doublet and the caption reads "Soldiers of the 42nd Foot... armed with the 1853 Pattern Enfield Rifle Musket". They have the diamond shaped buttons. Pity I can't post the photo but copyright prevents that.

Stuart