8th London Regiment

[Angel]

Hi everybody

Is there a kind soul out there, that could help with some advice on the following:-

I am researching my family tree, In particular the name Culshaw, at present I have a few great Uncles who were involved in WW1, but I can't seem to find any info at present.

I do have the medal cards for two of them Percy Alfred Culshaw, and Sidney Culshaw, I can't find them on the CWGC site, or any Marriage/Deaths Registered. So at present I'm assuming they were war casualties.

The medal card for Percy states he was in the 8th London Regiment, No. 2672, a private. Also states he was discharged for health reasons around 3 months after enlisting. July+ 1914. No theatre of war listed.

But I have photos of him in uniform all various dates and in different camps. Most around 1917/18, based at Camberley, and Cambs etc. In one of the photos he is holding a coat/jacket over his arm and you can see A.S.C on the shoulder. In another photo he is a cook!!!

Can any body throw any light on a slight history of the 8th London Reg etc, as I understand that reg did change names or numbers quiet often, I'm just totally confused as if he was discharged, how do I have the photos taken a lot later. Also where does the ASC come into it.

Can anybody help?

Any advice at all would be greatly received.

Thanks

[Tony]

Hello Angel,

I can't tell you anything about the Post Office Rifles but, my great Grandfather was a territorial in the 12th London Regt. which he joined in 1912, he was invalided out in 1916 and in 1917/18 he joined the Labour Corps.

My other great Grandfather who served in the 24th Londons was wounded in 1914, I have photos of him in khaki with bandages and hospital blues. In November 1915 he was sent to Alexandria, then India and then Rangoon but there is no record (that I can find) of him ever going to France or Belgium and being wounded.

Records are sometimes hard to follow.

Sorry I couldn't really help and good luck with your research.

Tony

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

The 1/8th London Rifles were part of 47th (2nd London) Division which did not go to France until March 1915, therefore it is not surprising that Percy's medal card does not mention a theatre - he would have been discharged before the unit embarked.

As he appears in later photo's in uniform he must have re-enlisted in a desire to 'do his bit', but men who enlisted (or re-enlisted) after the beginning of the war and who did not serve abroad will not have medal cards so it will not be easy to trace his later career other than by using the photos. His enrolment in the Army Service Corps, given his presumably poor health, is no surprise as there were many activities required of that formation at home - such as being a cook - at army training camps.

Hope this helps.

[Angel]

Hello Angel,

I can't tell you anything about the Post Office Rifles but, my great Grandfather was a territorial in the 12th London Regt. which he joined in 1912, he was invalided out in 1916 and in 1917/18 he joined the Labour Corps.

My other great Grandfather who served in the 24th Londons was wounded in 1914, I have photos of him in khaki with bandages and hospital blues. In November 1915 he was sent to Alexandria, then India and then Rangoon but there is no record (that I can find) of him ever going to France or Belgium and being wounded.

Records are sometimes hard to follow.

Sorry I couldn't really help and good luck with your research.

Tony

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[Angel]

Hi Tony

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I was attending a funeral yesterday.

I must tell you, you have helped, as I didn't know the 8th London were part of the Post Office Rifles, shows you how confusing all this army stuff can be for someone who knows nothing about it..

Were the Post Office Rifles actually anything to do with the Post Office, as Percy was employed by them around 1908. He was 18 then (again I have a photo)?.

I have a silly question for you, is Khaki the creamy colour, worn in the desert or hot places,(Shorts etc) or is it the Brown/Green, as my colleague and I are having a friendly dispute at the moment....

Think I'll have to find where his records might be/if they exist..

Many Thanks for your help.

Angel

[Angel]

Hi Andrew

Thanks for replying, if Iv'e got this right, do you mean the 1/8th were part of the 47th Div were also known as the 2nd london Div, Post Office Rifles.?

Also do you know if the following is correct but I have been told that the men enlisted for a number of years i.e five years, but if they were discharged, they had a choice of either serving their time at home waiting to be called up (reserves ?) or they could serve out their time at one of the training camps, this might explain the 1918 photos at various camps.

If this is wrong and he did actually re-enlist 3-4 years later, would he have been given a new army number and seperate records from the 1914 records.

The medal card I have for him, was the second type, not the one that actually lists which medals he was entitled to, if I remember correctly its the one that meant he was entitled to the silver war badge automatically. Sorry but I don't have all my records with me. (Work)

The other camps he was at were Thorsby Park Notts August 1918 (Cook)

Clipstone Mansfield Notts Deember 1918 (A.S.C.)

Camberley Aug 1914 (Group pic must be 8th London)

Many thanks for your help..

Angel

[Tony]

Hello Angel,

No need for apologies.

If you check the 1901 online census you will see that at that time, Percy was a messenger boy for the post office and he was born in Camden Town, Sidney was born in Hornsey and there's also an Edgar Culshaw (3 years younger than Percy and 2 years older than Sidney) who was born in St. Lukes. All three were living in Tottenham in 1901.

I think GPO men who volunteered were used as telegraphic workers in the late Victorian period and changed to infantrymen some time before the Great War (all speculation on my part though).

Certain units had men from certain trades or who came from a certain part of town e.g. the Paddington Rifles (10th Londons), Finsbury Rifles (11th Londons) or the Civil Service Rifles (15th Londons).

Kitchener's Army did the same, I think the idea (I was told this years and years and years ago) was that men who were already friends or had a common background would look after each other better in the field.

Khaki is brownish green for me. I think the word is Hindi and means dust.

Tony

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

Angel - for clarification the 1/8th London (a.k.a the Post Office Rifles) were a Battalion. 4 (usually) battalions made up a Brigade and 3 (usually) Brigades made a Division. So, at the start of the war, the chain was 1/8th London > 168 Brigade > 56 Division. However, in November 1914 the 1/8th were transferred to the 47th Div. Their own title would have remained unchanged.

It would be helpful if I could see the MIC in this case as it may solve a few problems - could you attach it to a post in this thread?

You are correct about men going on the reserve, but in this case being discharged on health grounds would mean exactly that, i.e. out of the army. Although I have no access to any facts, the only obvious theory I can put forward is that he re-enlisted into a non-combat unit such as the ASC. How can you tell for certain? The only way is to see if his Service Records have survived at the National Archives. Only about 40% do survive, but you may be lucky. If you want to know more about researching a WWI soldier may I recommend two possible websites that say very similar things?

1. My own: http://www.derbyshirelads.uwclub.net/

Click on 'The Men', then 'Researching Soldiers of the Great War: How to do it'

2. Long Long Trail: http://www.1914-1918.net/

Click on 'Research'

Hope this helps!

Edited August 10, 2005 by Andrew Hesketh

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

I have a silly question for you, is Khaki the creamy colour, worn in the desert or hot places,(Shorts etc) or is it the Brown/Green, as my colleague and I are having a friendly dispute at the moment....

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Oh, yeah, forgot.

It's both! There are different types of Khaki (drab, drill etc.). The most 'usual' is however the Green-Brown as Tony said.

And, a link about Clisptone Camp: http://www.mp-marples.co.uk/Foresttown.html

[Angel]

Hello Tony

Thanks for the info and for the census info, Percy was actually 1 of 10 children born between 1885-1903, and I think there might be more, as their Parents seemed to have babies every year/other year.

Out of the first six children 5 were boys, Percy, Edgar, Sidney, Joseph, Harold. 1885 - 1893.

I know more about Percy than any of the others, (no photos) of Harold or Sidney.

I havnt looked for Edgar's MC as Iv'e ony just confirmed his middle name, (Ernest),and at the time I was looking for them, there were a few Edgar Culshaw, same with Harold. I do have 1 photo that could be either of them, but I can't identify the uniform/badges at all, Guessing really.

I do know that both Edgar and Harold were alive in 1947, as I have a letter from Edgar to Harold.

Joseph died in 1911, aged 18/19 so missed the war.

Thanks again for your help..

Angel

[Angel]

Hi Andrew

Many thanks for the links (I havn't looked at them yet, but will do this afternoon, bit busy) and advice.

I don't have the MC at work but I do have transcriptions here, hopefully they are attached. I have also sent one for Alfred Culshaw, Percy's Father, My GGrandfather.

More info on this one, still unsure what to look for under the Army Pay Corp tho, also what the date is in the remarks box. Alfred died in 1947, but around 1930+ he was working at the Woolwich Arsenal, in the Armaments Inspection Div, a civilian employee, so they informed me. Have you any idea what this date might mean.

Thanks for your help

[Angel]

Hi Andrew

Attachment didn't work, I will have to try from home. Iv'e done it on a excel programme doesn't like it.

Angel

[Angel]

It would be helpful if I could see the MIC in this case as it may solve a few problems - could you attach it to a post in this thread?

Hi Andrew

Trying again..

Angel

[attachmentid=7889]

[Angel]

It would be helpful if I could see the MIC in this case as it may solve a few problems - could you attach it to a post in this thread?

Hello Andrew

This is Alfred's MIC

Angel

[attachmentid=7890]

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

Angel - I'm a little confused. Are you looking into Percy Alfred Culshaw or Alfred Culshaw?

[Angel]

Angel - I'm a little confused. Are you looking into Percy Alfred Culshaw or Alfred Culshaw?

Hi Andrew

Sorry for the confusion. Alfred Culshaw is Percy's Father, so eventually I'll be looking into Alfred's Military History as well. I only put Alfred's on at present to see if the date in the remarks section meant anything to anybody. I do know Alfred did go to France as I have another photo, don't know where it was taken at present, It has on the back "somewhere in France" Alfred Culshaw..lots more info on his MIC so not so confusing, although I havn't looked in to the A.P.C. side yet...

Hope this makes sense..

Angel

[Angel]

And, a link about Clisptone Camp: [url=http://www.mp-

Sorry forgot to mention Iv'e looked at all the sites you recommended

Congratulations on a very good site, very helpful on tracing soldiers and where to go, Trip to London is definately needed sometime in the future. Clipstone was very interesting, but not many pics, at least I have a bit of history behind it now.

Many Thanks for the advice.

Angel.

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

Thanks for posting Percy's MIC. I've been in contact with someone who is very familiar with them. He tells me that Percy would have been eligible for a 'Silver War Badge' (for those discharged from the army on health grounds) only if his discharge was due to poor health resulting from his brief service between September and December 1914. If he was eligible he would need to have applied for it. Unless you know he got one then the only way to find out is to look at his entry on the Medal Roll at the National Archives. These are not available to view / download.

Beyond this his MIC tells us nothing more.

[Angel]

He tells me that Percy would have been eligible for a 'Silver War Badge' (for those discharged from the army on health grounds) only if his discharge was due to poor health resulting from his brief service between September and December 1914. If he was eligible he would need to have applied for it. Unless you know he got one then the only way to find out is to look at his entry on the Medal Roll at the National Archives.

Hi Andrew

Trip to London definately needed as I don't know if he did get any medals.

Many thanks for all your help and advice.

Angel

[Guest Andrew Hesketh]

Good luck - I hope you find what you need.

[Guest pikemedals]

HI, AFTER LOOKING AT PERCY CULSHAW MIC.IT LOOK LIKE HE ONLY GOT A SILVER WAR BADGE.NO MEDALS ISSUED. AS THE 1st/8th BN LONDON REGIMENT WENT TO FRANCE ON THE 11/5/15 AND THE 2nd/8th BN LONDON REGIMENT WENT ON THE 31/1/18. THE KR.PARA 392(XVI) = KINGS REGULATIONS PARAGRAPH 392(XVI) NO LONGER PHYSICALLY FIT FOR WAR SERVICE. AND HAS FOR PTE.A.CULSHAW HE GOT THE 1914-15 TRIO & THE SILVER WAR BADGE YOU WILL NEED TO GET HIS SWB ROLL OUT TO FIND OUT WHY HE GOT IT.HE WAS IN THE ARMY PAY CORP.A VERY NICE TRIO TO THE APC.I NEVER SEEN ONE.AM BEEN BUYING WW1 MEDALS 13 YEARS NOW TTFN PAUL

[Angel]

HI, AFTER LOOKING AT PERCY CULSHAW MIC.IT LOOK LIKE HE ONLY GOT A SILVER WAR BADGE.NO MEDALS ISSUED. AS THE 1st/8th BN LONDON REGIMENT WENT TO FRANCE ON THE 11/5/15 AND THE 2nd/8th BN LONDON REGIMENT WENT ON THE 31/1/18. THE KR.PARA 392(XVI) = KINGS REGULATIONS PARAGRAPH 392(XVI) NO LONGER PHYSICALLY FIT FOR WAR  SERVICE. AND HAS FOR PTE.A.CULSHAW HE GOT THE 1914-15 TRIO & THE SILVER WAR BADGE YOU WILL NEED TO GET HIS SWB ROLL OUT TO FIND OUT WHY HE GOT IT.HE WAS IN THE ARMY PAY CORP.A VERY NICE TRIO TO THE APC.I NEVER SEEN ONE.AM BEEN BUYING WW1 MEDALS 13 YEARS NOW TTFN PAUL

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Hi Paul

Thanks for the info. very helpful, do you know if there is someone/somewhere I could contact to see if the medals were actually issued as none of our family have ever seen them, the only one we do have is a Britain Legion Badge. No luck tracing this tho.

Another question do you know what the APC did?

Angel

[Guest pikemedals]

HI ANGEL , THE MEDALS WAS ISSUSED TO YOU FAMILY. AS IT WILL SAY ON THE MICs IF NOT ISSUED. OVER TIME MEDALS CAN GET LOST IN THE FAMILY. A FEW YEARS AGO A MEMBER OF MY FAMILY DIED AND 3 LOTS OF MEDALS COME UP TO THE FAMILY.I KNEW NOTHING OF THEM BEFOR THAT.ONE PAIR WAS OVER 100 YEARS OLD.SOME OF THE WW1 BOYS JUST PUT THEIR MEDALS IN THE DUST BIN AFTER THE WAR.OR JUST BEEN SOLD OFF OVER THE YEARS.YOU CAN PUT A ADVERTISEMENT IN MEDALS NEWS FOR MISSING MEDALS AT A SMALL COST.BUT VERY RARE DO THEY COME UP.THE APC LOOK AFTER THE MONEY & PAY THE MEN IN THE ARMY. HOPE THAT CAN HELP YOU PAUL

[Angel]

YOU CAN PUT A ADVERTISEMENT IN MEDALS NEWS FOR MISSING MEDALS AT A SMALL COST.BUT VERY RARE DO THEY COME UP.

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Hi Paul

Will certainly have a look at Medal News, might be worth trying, will also try asking the family again, just in case.

Thanks for your help.

Angel