Russian medals to German forces in China 1901

[GREAKLY]

Gentlemen,

I recently purchased pre-WWI German medal bar (Medal of the Order of Prossian Crown, 1900-1901 China medal, 1898 Kaiser Wilhelm Centeniary medal and Russian Zeal medal (Nicholas 2nd era)). The bar is original is every respect, so the question is: how did this German soldier (or an NCO at the most) got the Russian medal? The presence of the China medal sort of gives me an idea. There were about 50 German soldiers participating in the legations defense in Pekin and another 800-900 took part in the relief expedition. Does anybody know if any of those soldiers got Russian (or any other country's, besides their own) medals for these events?

You see, if this was the case with Britts everything would have been much more simple. Firstl, the medal(s) most likely would have been named, which would have made the research much easier. Also in order to be able to wear any foreign decoration the permission has to be granted (and subsequently published in the London Gazette) to the awardee by the king. Was that the case in Germany in early 20th Century? Could the soldier just wear any foreign medal or he needed some sort of permission? If so, would it be published somewhere? Does anybody have any information on Germans getting any foreign medals in China in 1901?

On a broader scale, does anybody know about any "international medal exchange" taking place in China in 1901? I mean, any country giving its medals to armed forces personnel (or civilians) of another country in connection with the Boxer rebellion. There is surprisingly little information about that in books and on the web. For the event that took place just 7 years after China (Italian Earthquake 1908) I've seen not only British, German and Russian medal bars/groups with "Messina" medal but also a lot of documents (at least Italian, Russian and British) covering the distribution of those medals. But almost nothing on this matter on 1901 China...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Ahhhhhhhhh.......you got that bar

In china the russian and the german forces were allies - russian doctors got german red cross medals, german soldiers got russian medals or orders, russian officers got german orders, german officers got russian orders - just the way of a political and military alliance

there are a lot of medal groups ot there of german soldiers/officers with russian medals/orders on them.....

your bar should have belonged to a navy soldier with the prussian crown order medal - unfortunately no battle clasp on the china medal, not easy to research.......

greetings

Heiko

[Guest Rick Research]

China could be a red herring. This sort of award was exchanged routinely for parades, official visits, jubilee parties for a regiment whose "Chef" the Tsar was, and so on. The monarchs were in and out of each other's capitols all the time before the World War.

He could have gotten the bar in Berlin in 1913. You never know without knowing whose it was.

As an example-- most German officer groups with Siamese and South American awards on them were NOT gained overseas. True for the navy but rarely for the army-- members of those armies, or teenaged princelings, were in training IN Germany and the German instructors were decorated AT HOME by those foreign governments.

You really can't ever know.

[GREAKLY]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the information. Rick, I do not think this particular group is a "red herring". I am aware of a number of German groups (as late as Third Reich) with various Imperial Russian awards. However, they mostly went to "ground" units personnel, where Russian Czars were cheffing. The only few occasions that I know of when Russian awards were given to German NAVAL personnel (besides China) were during "fleet visits" 1906-1908. I have a picture of German sailor wearing medal bar with Prussian long service medal, Luitpold medal and Russian Zeal medal. But that one clearly dates post-1905.

Heiko, why do you think the bar belonged to some NAVAL soldier? I mean, it's been my understanding that Crown Order medal was reserved mostly for non-military personnel and mostly for state servants from other countries. Am I right? Do you have any documents/articles/etc. about Russians giving Germans medals in 1901 China? I mean, any other information but medal bars? Have you seen any other German bars from 1901 China with any foreign decorations?

I wish there was a list of all those awarded with Crown Order medal, so that I could cross reference it with the list of those awarded with Russian orders and medals in 1901 China and quickly find my awardee...

[Guest Rick Research]

No, they are sprinkled through the pages of the Milit?rwochenbl?tter constantly: visits went both ways, and birthdays happened every year. For me, the verification that the Russian award has nothing to do with China is that there is no GERMAN military decoration on there. I would expect a Milit?rehrenzeichen 2nd Class for there to be any likelihood that the Zeal Medal was not a parade/visit present from who-knows-when.

Heiko is right. To military personnel, Prussian Crown Order Medals (and Red Eagle Order Medals) are never common. But when they are, it is a "signature" of naval personnel. But then they usually went to senior Petty Officers-- who almost always had an Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen medal in silver as well.

There is every chance that with ONLY a Crown Order Medal and NO General Decoration medal, this fellow was a short-timer in the military and got BOTH the merit medals as some sort of civilian court "Lakai."

What color is the cloth backing on the medal bar? Even that is only a hint, not an absolute.

But with

1) no German military decoration for China

2) no battle bar for the China medal (we are assuming it is the BRONZE combatants type and not STEEL for stay-at-homes?)

you really

really

do not have any pursuable clues with that combination.

I've been chasing down groups for over 30 years, and this is not a combination that makes me and say Aha! THAT is an XYZ For Sure.

PS-- two scans: front and back, really are worth 1,000 words.

[GREAKLY]

Rick, thank you very much for your informative reply. From the ribbon of Russian medal (St.Stanilaus) I can tell for sure that this was a soldier, not an NCO. An NCO would have gotten the medal on St. Anne ribbon. At least that was the case with Britts receiving Russian medals on a number of occasions. The backing on the medal bar is red, the China medal is bronze, combatant type. Pictures of both sides of the bar are attached. What do you think? Also could you please tell why Crown order medal was a "signature" of Naval personnel?

If this was a Naval soldier (for sure not an NCO) or some civilian who actively participated in the conflict in China in 1901 and who did not get any gallantry medals for those actions (that at least eliminates 665 recipents of Milit?rehrenzeichen 2nd Class) does this bring the search to a managable number of possible awardees?

Thanks again.

[GREAKLY]

One more thought. Is there a chance that all recipients of Russian (and any other foreign) medals for China were published in the Milit?rwochenbl?tter sometime in late 1901 or 1902?

[HeikoGrusdat]

....................it came out of one of the biggest and best imperial german naval collections I know...............

As Rick and I said............without a battle clasp and no more things on it it is not IDable..............but it is very nice!!!

[Bernd D]

One more thought. Is there a chance that all recipients of Russian (and any other foreign) medals for China were published in the Milit?rwochenbl?tter sometime in late 1901 or 1902?

For China a few German soldiers were awarded with the Russian golden War Merit Medal, according to the Milit?rwochenblatt. But they received the MEZ1 or MEZ2 before. Exempt one they were all Naval Infantry. Some soldiers received the Russian China Commemorative Medal, too. That was all German soldiers got from Russia. Of course there were some officers who receive orders.

[GREAKLY]

Bernd,

Thank you for your reply. When the information about Russian awards to German Marines (especially about Russian China Commemorative Medal) was published in the Milit?rwochenblatt (year and month)? Also I am not exactly sure what you mean by "Russian golden War Merit Medal". There was no such medal in Imperial Russia. If the awardees were NCOs or enlisted they could have gotten golden Bravery medal (1st or 2nd class). It's highly unlikely though, as, normally, soldiers would have gotten 4th or 3rd (silver) classes first before getting any of the higher classes of this medal.

Also all Russian Bravery medals ("Za Khrabrost") of all classes were numbered. Does Milit?rwochenblatt say anything about medals' serial numbers?

[Bernd D]

Bernd,

Thank you for your reply. When the information about Russian awards to German Marines (especially about Russian China Commemorative Medal) was published in the Milit?rwochenblatt (year and month)? Also I am not exactly sure what you mean by "Russian golden War Merit Medal". There was no such medal in Imperial Russia. If the awardees were NCOs or enlisted they could have gotten golden Bravery medal (1st or 2nd class). It's highly unlikely though, as, normally, soldiers would have gotten 4th or 3rd (silver) classes first before getting any of the higher classes of this medal.

Also all Russian Bravery medals ("Za Khrabrost") of all classes were numbered. Does Milit?rwochenblatt say anything about medals' serial numbers?

This was all in 1902 but I don?t have the exact issues. The Milit?rwochenblatt was not very accurate in naming foreign medals and orders. The medal was called "russische goldene Kriegs-Verdienst-Medaille" with no further details.

In the attachment you find a picture of the medalbar of the former Gefreiten Hipp, III. Seabattalion, a defender of the legation in Peking. He received this medal in 1902, too. It is in last place.

(WgM - MEZ 1 - China Medal with bar PEKING - Russian Medal)

Edited June 3, 2007 by Bernd D

[Guest Rick Research]

Crown Order Medals and Red Eagle Order Medals do not normally turn up in ARMY medal groups, but they do in NAVY ones. Just statistically that makes them characteristic of naval recipients.

The style mounting does not suggest a junior serving military person. By regulation, they'd have had flat ribbons with hooks on back.

As worn, that is either

1) a civilian who had enough money to pay extra for an officer style mounting or

2) a senior NCO/PO before 1913 whose long service award was still the ugly little M1825 pinback brooch-- like this Deck Officer just before the World War:

The red backing was traditional unfortunately and is found on almost all medal bars. Dark blue might have helped suggest a naval recipient, but not necessarily.

But a lone Crown Order Medal does not fit in with the normal awards for either a senior Petty Officer or Non-Commissioned Officer of that period.

Like 97% of German medal bars, without the award documents this is simply not traceable.

[GREAKLY]

Bernd,

Thank you very much for the photo. Now I am 100% sure that what was named "russische goldene Kriegs-Verdienst-Medaille" in the Milit?rwochenblatt was NOT the Bravery medal. You see, Russian Bravery (Tapferkeit - "Khrabrost") medal was only awarded on St. George ribbon (yellow and black stripes) regardless of class, awardee's rank or significance of the deed. However, on the picture you provided the medal hangs from St. Alexander ribbon (dark red). Therefore, there is no way it could have been Bravery medal. Must be something else.

On the other hand, Zeal medal could have been awarded in a variety of sizes (from 28 mm to 50 mm), metals (gold and silver) and ribbons (St. Stanislaus, St. Anne, St. Vladimir and St. Alexander) to show awardee's rank/social status (merchant, government official, servant etc) and the level (or the degree) of the deed (from long service to money donation). In other words, Zeal medal was sort of can-be-used-just-for-anything medal. So it would be natural to issue it to German troops in China for some allied duties. In which case, NCOs and Unteroffizieren would have gotten the gold medal ("goldene Kriegs-Verdienst-Medaille") and enlisted men would have received silver medal (both medals would come on different ribbons to signify awardee's rank).

Rick,

Could you please provide more information as to the award criteria for the medal of the order of Crown to German Naval personnel. I mean, was it a long service award or low-grade bravery decoration? Did the guy actually had to do something to get it or it was more like EKII in 1918? Thank you in advance.

[eitze]

I?ve got a small book with the history of the III. Seebataillon, which is called "Die K?mpfe des III. Seebataillons w?hrend der Wirren 1900/01".

There is a supplement with the names of all soldiers and officers of the unit and the decorations they got for China.

These Russian awards were made:

- 2 George Crosses (for the Peking defenders)

- 34 golden military merit medals (also Peking)

- 2 golden and 2 silver military merit medals (for Tientsien)

Perhaps this might be of interest for you!

greetings

eitze

[GREAKLY]

eitze,

Thank you so much for your information. Would it be possible to ask you to scan the page(s) that list all soldiers awarded with Russian medals and post it on the forum? Thank you in advance.

[eitze]

GREAKLY,

I`ll try it tomorrow.

greetings

eitze

[eitze]

Here it comes

[eitze]

[eitze]

[eitze]

[eitze]

[eitze]

[eitze]

And the last from the Peking-Defenders.

Hope you can read it all.

greetings

eitze

[GREAKLY]

eitze,

Thank you so much for these pictures I went through all of them but was unable to find any mention of "silver" medal(s). In your earlier post you said that 2 gold and 2 silver medals were given for Tientsien actions. Do you have the list of those soldiers as well? I mean, all the pictures you provided refer to "Peking Defenders" (III Seebatailion, 1-4 Companies). Who was in Tientsien then?

[eitze]

Hi,

I checked the Tientsin lists again and have to say, that I made a mistake in my first post.

There were 1 golden, 2 silver and 1 unknown Russian medal for Uffz. Flohr !

Let`s start.