RE Tunic, 1880's?

[TS Allen]

This is a rather strange tunic. I bought the whole thing for about $450, and I'd like to know if I got a good deal. The tunic is for a subaltern in the RE. It has the Victorian crown buttons, proper rank pips, everything.

The wool is beautiful, almost too beautiful. Very, very fine doe skin, it seems like this was a very wealthy subaltern. Of course, I'm not very familiar with these tunics, this is the only one I've ever seen. Everything else seems to look right for the period (I also collect Indian Wars artefacts so I'm not entirely lost) and like I said it has Victorian buttons.

The only thing I know about the tunic is that it came through a fellow named Ivor Chapman, apparently an Englishmen living here in the US. He's apparently a rather big dealer, although I've never heard of him.

The thing that has got me confused is the stuff that came on it. It doesn't seem like its appropriate to the tunic, but I am considering, assuming it doesn't go together, selling off the strange stuff.

The aigulette is, er, probably not British. If it is, it is from an early period, or some kind of private purchase item. I'm sure one of our experts can enlighten me. It has some leaves on the bottom of the (I think gold) ending of the thing and four hoplite-style heads around the aigulette.

The stable belt/ sash make no sense. It sure as hell isn't Engineers, it looks like its for the 17/21st Lancers. It has fine tassels on the ends, in red and gold, and the back of it has beautiful red leather on it. Its all very fine, I would assume an officers sash from such a famous regiment would be rather desirable.

The belt itself is silver with a red centre, possibly originall gold with a red centre. The belt has got a Victorian crown surmounted by a lion. It has that over-extended Victorian belt style, and has the same read leather interior.

Overall question, what is the value of the tunic? Ignoring all of the strange stuff on it, what's it worth? And what is the 'junk' on it worth?

~TS

[TS Allen]

Absolutely nothing? Is my picture not visible?

~TS

[Graham Stewart]

TS,

The picture alas is pretty small, so we can't really make out a lot of features, but one thing is for certain don't go selling of the additional bits as they may just be part of the uniform as officers wore a number of dress distictions around their scarlet jackets. For instance "parade dress" would differ from that worn at "court". By that I don't mean where a judge bangs you in jail, I mean the 'Royal court'. Officers who were also A.D.C. to higher ranking officers or the Royal Household would also wear dress distinction fitting that role and so on. What you actually require is a copy of Dress Regulations for the period which gives all of the dress distinctions for officers.

Graham.

PS,

Any chance of some clearer larger photos like the attached?

[TS Allen]

Not really, but I assumed that the strange stuff like the 17th Lancers stable belt (I think) could be helped by the members of the forum.

I don't have a proper digital camera, so no photos anytime soon. What is that tunic in that picture? Commonwealth militia or something?

~TS

[Graham Stewart]

Looks like you'll have to invest in a digital camera, a most useful tool in this game. Ironically I bought my first one in Florida after loosing our old camera at Disney World and haven't looked back since.

The Rifle Grey tunic is infact British and belongs to the 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers(T.F.), and the colour dates back to the early Rifle Volunteer days of 1860, when greys and greens were more common than scarlet. It's a 1909 pattern tunic, that seems to be unique to the Territorial Force as there's subtle differences to it.

Now this is just an observation, but there appears to be no gold lace on your tunic which there should be if it's an officers pattern. This would be found on both the collar, shoulder boards and Austrian knott on the cuff.

Graham.

[TS Allen]

The lace is gold, the picture is just so bad you can't tell. Like I said, the picture doesn't matter, I just really need to know about the stable belt/ belt, which are both simple enought to be described.

~TS

[Graham Stewart]

This is obviously the tunic in your possession, but I'm unable to find anything in Dress Regulations regarding the shoulder belt. Had it been cavalry, a pouch would have been attached. That for the Royal Engineers was of "Russian leather, 2inches wide, with three stripes of gold embroidery, the centre one being waved, the others straight; engraved buckle, tip and slide. The letters R.E. within the tip".

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

The aiguillette wouldn't appear to be out of place if attached to the General Staff as Personal Staff, and is worn as illustrated by officers on the left side below a certain rank.

Graham.

[Graham Stewart]

Description of the "aiguillette" from Dress Regulations 1900.

Graham.

[TS Allen]

That's the tunic. You wouldn't happen to know the years of use, would you? I know the 1902 type is similar, but this has the V-cyphers buttons.

Also, the stable belt isn't for RE proper. Like I said, I think it is for the 17th Lancers, that is what it looks like to me. It doesn't have the wavy centre of the RE type.

The aigulette must just be an odd example (private purchase of some sort?) as it fits regulations but looks just so odd.

~TS

Edited September 12, 2007 by TS Allen

[Graham Stewart]

TS,

Think the answer for your shoulder belt lies here in this photo and it's description fits. It's for 'levee' dress and possibly for infantry only, so you are probably right that it is an additional item to the uniform. Your uniform probably dates from 1881, but if you had a name of the officer to whom it belonged a look in the Army List would determine the exact date of wear.

Graham.

[TS Allen]

Sadly, I've yet to find a name on the tunic. I'm going to take it down and take another look tonight. Out of curiousity, where would I acquire the Army lists? Considering the small size of the army there must have only been a limited number of 2LT's in the RE in 1881, and I'd always like to know what this fellow could have been up to.

The sash and belt is definately the same thing, I appreciate you finding that for me!!!! I don't have many references on Victorian uniforms so I'd never have found it on my own.

So, now I've explained the stable belt (which I'll for now leave on just because of how beautiful it is, although if I ever acquire a proper tuni for Infantry I guess I'll be able to 'dress' it).

So, oh forum Gurus, would it be possible to explain the augilette? This uniform has clearly been 'messed with,' but I think that was only with the addition of some of the insignia. The aigulette is a nice peice, I would think it has some value in its own right. I'll try to get closeups tomorrow, I know may have acess to a camera. The only thing I must can note noe is that I'll have counts of the knots and such later, and that it has Greek heads on it (could it be German?).

One last question. For the infantry levee belt, is levee used to refer to a reserve officer of some sort? To me the term means the soldiers in Roman alae, so I'm a bit lost here.

Thanks again!!!!

~TS

[Graham Stewart]

Levee - "A reception held by the sovereign, for men only."

Any 1881 Army List, which can be found in Monthly, Quarterly or Yearly editions, wouldn't be too easy to get hold of and if you did get hold of one I think you'd be surprised at the number of officers it contained. The Royal Engineers were quite a large Corps and without a name you'd be floundering in the dark, as you need to know his name in order to find what year he was commissioned, but it could be anytime between 1881 and 1901. Another problem is that a 2nd/Lt commissioned into the Corps in December 1900 certainly wouldn't change his Victorian pattern buttons overnight for those with a Kings Crown, they would be changed as and when the opportunity arose, thats if he changed them at all. If the interior of the jacket has pockets, pull out the lining to ensure he hasn't hidden his name somewhere. My officers scarlet frock coat has his name written on the tailors label.

Graham.

[Stuart Bates]

I use Army Lists on CD from www.youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk and now have 50 on CD and 2 in book form. TS if there is a name I would be happy to look it up for you.

If Royal Engineers then he can't be a 2nd Lt as Engineers were commissioned as Lieutenants. How many pips to each shoulder?

Stuart

Edited September 15, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[TS Allen]

One per shoulder. I know that early on this was the first lieutenants insignia with 2LT's having none. But if this tunic dates to 1881 I'm not sure if that is correct, I know the change was made during the initial stages of the Cardwell Reforms, along with getting rid of purchase of commisions and the rank of cornet (which has apparently returned, in any event).

~TS

[Stuart Bates]

My Dress Regulations for 1883, 1891 and 1900 all state that Lieutenants had a single pip, 2nd Lieutenants none and a Captain 2. My DRs for 1911 state 2nd Lt 1 star and a Lt 2 stars, Captains had 3.

Stuart

Edited September 15, 2007 by Stuart Bates

[TS Allen]

My Dress Regulations for 1883, 1891 and 1900 all state that Lieutenants had a single pip, 2nd Lieutenants none and a Captain 2. My DRs for 1911 state 2nd Lt 1 star and a Lt 2 stars, Captains had 3.

Stuart

That's strange, I guess I'm confused or this is just a difference between dress and other regulations. In any event, I've never totally understand the 50 seeming methods of wearing pips in this era....

Thanks!!!!

~TS

[Stuart Bates]

The Dress Regulations for the Army were published from time to time and state what uniforms, badges, hats &c were to be worn by the various officers of the Army - Staff, Cavalry, Infantry, Corps &c. So between 1900 and 1911 the number of pips/stars was changed as I described. I am trying to get the 1904 DRs which is the only one between 1900 and 1911.

Stuart

[leigh kitchen]

What is the exact design of the belt locket? The male section is the crest of lion over crown, but what does the inscription or design on the female part consist of please?

[TS Allen]

Leaves, probably laurel types. Dot at bottom of belt, where the two ends meet at the top, a small plain section.

~TS