Order of St. Henry , Albrect Order medal bar.

[Ed Maroli]

First off I would like to say hello to all the members. I was wondering if it was possible to research this saxon bar?. The 25 year long service would put him born no later than 1880? And the 25 year faithful service would put him still alive around 1939-40? Somewhere between a major to colonel?

Thanks, Ed Maroli

[Guest Rick Research]

Very nice bar. I agree with you-- somebody born between about 1880 and 1883 with not quite the required 40 years combined military and civil service time in, 1938/39 when this medal bar was made. He was probably recalled back into the army in September 1939 and most likely if he DID soon thereafter earn the 40 years civil service cross, last bestowed in January 1943, he just never bothered re-mounting his medal bar "for the duration." There is an equally narrow "window" for earning that Saxon XXV with the wartime = double time for regulars and NOT having the real calendar years in for the civil service 40 when they were created in 1938. He'd have joined the army between 1899 and 1901.

Definitely went out of the Saxon army as a Major. He was already a Captain when the war started.

Unfortunately I doubt this is going to be traceable because his military awards are "pure Saxon" with nothing distinctive to pick him out from the other Captains (at the time) who got an Albert-Knight 1st Class with Swords twice--hence the crown here as a second award of the same class-- 1,149 times during the war. Even being fairly sure he was born 1881/3 and joined the army 1900/01, there are simply too many Captains of the same age with the same length of service and awards.

I've never sorted out those 1,149 to see who did NOT get the intermediate award between that and the St. Henry, the Merit Order-Knight 1stX--and then checked "SA3aXmKr" NO "SV3aXf" winners against the St. Henry recipients. But I've seen similar enough groups to expect that after thousands and thousands of entries checking, what would be left would be dozens, at least, of Potential Suspects and it would not surprise me if there were several hundred possibles.

The real problem here is that this retired Major went into the civil service. There is absolutely NOTHING which shows which Majors took their pension and which got civilian jobs. The only non famous ones traceable after 1918 are career Reichsheer/Wehrmacht officers.

Bottom line is you have a terrific Saxon medal bar to a well-decorated Major.

[Ed Maroli]

Rick, Thank you for the reply. Your knowledge truly amazes me.

~Ed Maroli

[Guest Rick Research]

"Live forever" is my motto.

At some point somebody is going to have all of this entered on a computer database, so all it will take is typing in the awards combinations and the results will come back in seconds, not the current days or hours. Such effort is underway for PRUSSIAN groups, but SAXON groups haven't had their turn... yet.

I think 10 years from now new collectors will have NO clue about the Days Of Line By Line Searching By Eye.

[Ed Maroli]

I assume not a Lt. Col. to Col. by the lack of other awards and only the 25 year faithful service. His wartime(WWI) service only counting double towards the Saxon long service?

Thanks again ~Ed Maroli

[Guest Rick Research]

No, he would have gone out as a Major, MAYBE a brevet Lieutenant Colonel as a retirement bump.

I've been through EVERYBODY in Roth's massive career/biographies and while it was not QUITE as bad as I thought, there were still 76 officers who went out with this Saxon trio and nothing else on their medal bars. A couple of underachievers were actually still Captains, and there are an equal handful who managed to get a pip on their retirement shoulder boards, but the rest were solidly Majors either during the war or in retirement. The bit of rank waffle comes from officers who were Majors just as the war started and got the SA3aXmKr as an INITIAL award, by rank, ratrher than as two awards of the same class. But they would of course have had more years in and would have reached Third Reich "40" by 1938. That may shave off a handful of suspects. I just counted them as I went through the hundreds of pages-- there is no way to FIND any of them as civil servants.

For what a difference just one MORE award can make, see

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2229...t=0#entry212642

There were actually many more officers with the Meiningen award on their bars BUT.... they also had OTHER things too.

[Ed Maroli]

Rick, I thank you again for your time ~Ed

[Ed Maroli]

Both Saxon Orders are Scharffennbergs. The Henry is unmarked and the Albrect is marked 's' on the lower cross arm. The DOA is 1 piece. ~Ed

[Ed Maroli]

Hello, Would this officer have joined the service 1897 or earlier by the 25 yr. Saxon long service? 1897-1914 = 17 + 8 for double time during war years. ~Ed

[Guest Rick Research]

No. For career regulars, the years 1914 to 1918 were counted as 10 years, 2x 5. Before the war, military service overseas also counted double for pensions and long service awards.

here is an old thread called "Imperial Math 101" that explains all, with a specific example of a pre- and war-double time career:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1037&hl=Baumgart

[Ed Maroli]

Thanks again, The "Imperial 101" math thread clarifies everything. ~ED

[Stogieman]

Could be worse Ed... the RK St. Henry could be paired with an Albert 2 with swords... now there's an impossible trail to trace. An exceptionally nice Saxon Bar, Very nice indeed!

[Ed Maroli]

I have one final question. Did the Third Reich long service awards count WWI as double?.

Thanks, Ed

[Guest Rick Research]

The civil service crosses also counted previous military service years, but as calendar years, not double-time.

So a 1914 War Volunteer who was coaxed into staying in the 1919 Provisional Reichswehr only to get dumped out in 1920 after all got an NCO's XII Years Service Medal (1914-18 = 10, +1 1919 +1 1920), then went into civil service getting the 25 years Treudienst in 1939 after 25 real years 1914 to 1939.

Double-dipping in the sense that time was counted twice for the two different awards, but just to make things weird, double time for one and normal time for the other. Would have been worse if he was a military official with simultaneous Imperial reserve and full time military long services.

If all this seems bizarre-- and it is-- just think:

why did the Wehrmacht authorize TWO long service awards to be worn, 25 & 12, 18 & 4, 12 & 4... when all that was needed was the ONE Third Reich military long service award to show 25, 18, or 12?