Austria-Hungary Ignaz Joseph SCHMIDT Wien Jeweller

[Veteran]

According to a very knowlegeable collector, this early Commander's cross of the Austrian Order of Leopold bears the hallmark of Ignaz Joseph Schmidt, who was a jeweller in Wien in the early 1800s. This collector has an other badge of the same order, same style, same hallmark.

Jacobs (Court Jewellers of the World) does not mention him. Would any member of this forum have further information about Schmidt and the period during wich he was active as a maker of Imperial Orders?

The unusual ribbon (normally red with white bordering stripes) might be a French combination of O. of Leopold + O. od St. Louis + Legion of honor.)

Knowing how long SCHMIDT was active will allow an evaluation of the period during which this badge of the second type of the Order introduced in 1812 may have been made. The third, enlarged, type of badges was entroduced circa 1860.

Any information will be most welcome.

Best regards

Veteran

Edited January 24, 2008 by Veteran

[Elmar Lang]

Hi Veteran,

the Leopold you've posted is an extremely fine, early piece. Yes, the ribbon is a combination of the colours of two orders (most probably, a ribbon for a miniature bar was used).

The hallmark I see on the reverse of one of the crown's pendilia looks like Schmidt's one.

I'd have your same questions, since few data about Schmidt as "Ordens-Juwelier" do exist. I'll try to search more accurately.

Best wishes,

Enzo

[Veteran]

Hi Veteran,

the Leopold you've posted is an extremely fine, early piece. Yes, the ribbon is a combination of the colours of two orders (most probably, a ribbon for a miniature bar was used).

The hallmark I see on the reverse of one of the crown's pendilia looks like Schmidt's one.

I'd have your same questions, since few data about Schmidt as "Ordens-Juwelier" do exist. I'll try to search more accurately.

Best wishes,

Enzo

Thank your very much, Enzo, for your very fast reply and kind compliments. Strangely, this award has been in my collection for decades and was nearly forgotten, since I mostly collect other types of material. I agree that few come round on the market - the last one I saw was 10 years ago at an auction in Paris.

It is interesting that the the first reply I receive about this Austrian Order would come from Nothern Italy. Many years ago, I was priviledged to see a large part of Dr. Fattovich's collection in Venice. A fantastic experience. This fine gentleman died a few months later.

I will be certainly looking forward to any further details you might find about Schmidt.

Very best regards

Veteran

Edited January 25, 2008 by Veteran

[Elmar Lang]

Hi Veteran,

I see that both you and me had the privilege to know Prof. Fattovich and see his fine collection. I've studied in Venice, so it was easy to meet him.

He was a real gentleman and, besides the collection, he had a huge library. He was always ready to give help and advise. I can say that if I've finally choosen to specialize my collection on Austria-Hungary, it was thank to him and his enthusiasm.

Yes, the type with separate crown is rare (the one with oak leaves would be much, much more...).

Best wishes,

Enzo

[Yankee]

Hi Veteran

What a lovely old example of the order, an absolute thrill to see such one and your hollow crown is exquisite in all details

. Normally most prior 1860 are not marked and finding one by a certain jeweler is awesome.

Thanks for posting

Sincerely

Brian

[Veteran]

Hi Brian

Thank you for your kind comments. This cross was bought in Paris, many years ago from a well-known dealer of that time, and it probably came fron a French family. Strangely, the ribbon seems to be a combination of three awards which was sometimes found during the "Restauration" period (1814-1830).

If this means anything in the history of this particular award, then it was worn by a military man, since the St.Louis Order was only given to officers. Should that be the case, only 5 general officers of that period could have owned it. And if the award was made during the time when the Austrians were fighting Napoleon, it could only have been given to an emigr? officer, which narrows the possibilities even further.

The exact measurements of the cross are 45x32mm and the hollow crown is 31x31mm; the width of the ribbon is 38mm.

This forum, in addition to information from the French medals forum, has brought a lot of information about this award. I am very grateful. Hopefully, more might come up later.

Very best regards

Veteran

[Yankee]

Hi Brian

Thank you for your kind comments. This cross was bought in Paris, many years ago from a well-known dealer of that time, and it probably came fron a French family. Strangely, the ribbon seems to be a combination of three awards which was sometimes found during the "Restauration" period (1814-1830).

If this means anything in the history of this particular award, then it was worn by a military man, since the St.Louis Order was only given to officers. Should that be the case, only 5 general officers of that period could have owned it. And if the award was made during the time when the Austrians were fighting Napoleon, it could only have been given to an emigr? officer, which narrows the possibilities even further.

The exact measurements of the cross are 45x32mm and the hollow crown is 31x31mm; the width of the ribbon is 38mm.

This forum, in addition to information from the French medals forum, has brought a lot of information about this award. I am very grateful. Hopefully, more might come up later.

Very best regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Fascinating you are able to get some names, great luck that the roles still exist from an early period. I agree too that ever so few of these crosses ever come up. Last one to have seen was in the Morton&Eden Part 1 2006 from the ANS collection and that also is a marked example from the early 19th century unfortunately I missed that one . Prior to that Leopold do not remember one coming up for sale. This one was 28mm, have seen them as small as 25mm & these are knight size badges. The reverse clasp ( triangle ) is neat to say the least & to have the full orginal ribbon is beyond words . When you learn the identity please let us know. Good luck..

Sincerely

Brian

[Elmar Lang]

Hi,

in my preceeding post, I've forgtten to mention that a very similar piece is described and illustrated in "Oesterreichs Orden"; Graz, 1996, page 455 (n? 4.23) and plate 18, as made by Ignaz Joseph Schmidt. The Cross' size is: 32,2 x 27,7 mm. (suspension loop included, mobile suspension ring excluded).

Today, I've had the opportunity to examine and measure my two Knight's Crosses of old type:

1) Cross: 34 x 31 mm.

Crown: 33 x 28 mm.

Ribbon width: 40 mm.

This piece, although unmarked, corresponds in most details to a Schmidt-made cross.

2) Cross: 27,5 x 32

Crown: 26 x 27

Ribbon width: 38 mm.

Both pieces are of the type after 1818; n? 1 has been "updated" (post 1820 award) putting a connecting link soldered to the lower crown's rim (the "doubled" ribbon loop is still present and the "old-fashioned" original triangular ribbon is still present); n? 2 is also an "updated" piece, but with a "barocque" crown and an elaborate "Kriegsdekoration" laurel wreath (a post-1859 addition). If interesting, I'll take some pictures of both pieces soon.

Best wishes,

Enzo