WW1 Victory Medal

[Guest Darrell]

Another guy arrived today. 4 Clasps.

Aisne-Marne, St.Mihiel, Meuse-Argonne, Defensive Sector

Obverse:

[Guest Darrell]

Reverse:

[Andwwils]

There's a good book out about these, very definitive if you can get a hold of a copy:

"The Interallied Victory Medal of World War One." by Alexander Laslo

These victory medals have always appealed to me and they weigh a ton compared to the WWII medal.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Andwwils

[Guest Darrell]

There's a good book out about these, very definitive if you can get a hold of a copy:

"The Interallied Victory Medal of World War One." by Alexander Laslo

These victory medals have always appealed to me and they weigh a ton compared to the WWII medal.

Yes, got it

[Ed_Haynes]

A good book, and a really hard book to find these days.

[Ed Maroli]

Very nice example, What divisions were able to recieve those clasp?

Thanks, Ed

[Guest Darrell]

Very nice example, What divisions were able to recieve those clasp?

Thanks, Ed

Ed, here is a summary page with possibilities:

Edited February 17, 2008 by Darrell

[Ed Maroli]

Darrell, I thank you for the info. Cheers, Ed Maroli

[Guest Darrell]

So .... now I'm on this kick

A five bar medal, including the Modidier-Noyon clasp.

Obverse:

[Guest Darrell]

Reverse:

[Guest Darrell]

Came with the 1930 Box (a little worse for wear )

Top:

[Guest Darrell]

Bottom:

[Guest Darrell]

Open:

[W McSwiggan]

Could I ask for some clarification?

I claim no expertise on the subject of Campaign bars for the Victory Medal so there may be a simple explanation.

I am puzzled about the absence from the list of credits of the 26th Division and the 42nd Division. Both saw extensive combat.

As I looked to see if the issue was National Guard (as both these divisions were), I note that the following were listed:

27th Div., 29th Div., 30th Div., 31st Div., 34th Div., 35th Div., 36th Div., 37th Div., 38th Div., 39th Div., 40th Div. & 41st Div.

and

the following were not:

26th Div. (as mentioned), 28th Div., 32nd Div., 33rd Div. & the 42nd Div. (also mentioned). All of these excluded divisions saw significant action.

Can anyone enlighten?

Ed, here is a summary page with possibilities:

[Guest Darrell]

I'm sure this list is not complete. Can't comment on what is missing. I'd like to hear from others regarding this as well. Possibly we could add to the list?

[Guest Darrell]

Appears the column with the number of clasp possibility was scewed off line. This one has been corrected.

[W McSwiggan]

Part of the issue here is without knowing entitlements of the "missing divisions", crediting this medal to a given division will remain suspect because of incomplete data. I will try to find campaign credits for these units assuming that credit is equal to entitlement to the bar.

I'm sure this list is not complete. Can't comment on what is missing. I'd like to hear from others regarding this as well. Possibly we could add to the list?

[W McSwiggan]

I find this information to be very confusing.

Good news ? this information accounts for all the Regular Divisions involved.

Bad news ?

The mentioned National Guard Divisions (5) are the only involved that were excluded and I was able to find campaign credits for them courtesy of the National Guard Educational Foundation NGEF). In campaign credits, I could find no credits for ?Defensive Sector? for any units. I note that all listed in the original reference allowing bars for Muese Argonne also were credited with the Defensive Sector. This leads to a tentative conclusion that they went hand-in-hand and the absence of credit on the NGEF list does not constitute exclusion.

There were 2 National Army Divisions ? the 80th & 92nd that were excluded.

The 82nd Div. was listed 4 times! The US Army Center of Military History (CMH) credits the 82nd Division only with St. Mihiel & Muese-Argonne for campaign credit. Throw in the Defensive sector for good measure and that still leaves a hole for the Aisne-Marne. The 79th Division is listed twice but not in the running. The 80th (credited with only Somme & Muese-Argonne by CMH) & 92nd Divisions were not listed. As these were not significant combatant units, I will disregard them for now.

To my mind ? excluding the possibility of higher headquarters (1st Army or the Corps) ? you can only narrow this medal down to the 1st, 2nd & 3rd Divisions ? assuming a replacement not present for Aisne, Montdidier-Noyen or Champaogne-Marne. Throw in the Defensive Sector confusion and you can add the 26th and 42nd Divisions to the list of suspects.

The second medal seems to certainly be from the 2nd Division unless from a higher HQ.

I give up!

[Guest Rick Research]

I thought I had posted this before but cannot find it. Credit on the original to Donald Nixon (not the President's brother) in the 1970s:

Dredging up ancient dimming memories, I believe there was some way in weird circumstances to have ended up with a lone Defensive Sector bar-- and ONE star on a ribbon bar rather than the normal 2 and more BUT cannot recall the specifics. Even more bizarre was a way to have NOT had the Defensive Sector bar-- if I recall correctly, that applied only VERY specifically to troops who arrived for one of the "Offensive" bars without spending a day in line BEFOREHAND, nor any time in line at any time afterwards.

What I do recall, vividly, from when the Doughboys were hale and among us was the bitterness many felt at being given medals based NOT on their actual personal action at the front, but by what their UNIT was creditted with. If they happened to be absent (sick or wounded) they did NOT get all the bars their unit earned BUT they often were at the front in odd detachments and ended up with the much despised "depot shirkers" France bar.

[Guest Darrell]

Thanks for the extra cross reference Rick.

I do have a couple of questions.

a. On your list it doesn't have a reference for the three clasps: Cambrai, Somme Defensive and Lys. Any idea why?

b. There appears to be a descrepancy. The Montdidier clasp combo medal I posted appears to be for the 1st Div on your list, the 2nd Div on the list I posted. Any idea which is correct?

Edited March 14, 2008 by Darrell

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. I've had the list retyped above since about 1973. They're all dead now and too late to ask 'em. "Cambrai" was to ONE REGIMENT so no DIVISIONAL entitlement. The other two bars you mention are much too small to have had any DIVISIONAL entitlement.

Why THOSE had their own bars and not the much spurned "France," I have no clue.

According to 1928 "Vermont in the World War" which lists exact day by day front service by SECTOR for every unit that had anybody from Vermont in a unit (ever)--

1st Division was involved at Montdidier from 9 to 13 June 1918.

2nd Division was not engaged at Montdidier--they were at Chateau Thierry at the time. It has always mystified me why there was no Chateau Thierry bar!

[Guest Darrell]

Nope. I've had the list retyped above since about 1973. They're all dead now and too late to ask 'em. "Cambrai" was to ONE REGIMENT so no DIVISIONAL entitlement. The other two bars you mention are much too small to have had any DIVISIONAL entitlement.

Why THOSE had their own bars and not the much spurned "France," I have no clue.

According to 1928 "Vermont in the World War" which lists exact day by day front service by SECTOR for every unit that had anybody from Vermont in a unit (ever)--

1st Division was involved at Montdidier from 9 to 13 June 1918.

2nd Division was not engaged at Montdidier--they were at Chateau Thierry at the time. It has always mystified me why there was no Chateau Thierry bar!

Thanks Rick. I guess the first one needs to be modified

[W McSwiggan]

I'm much better now!

Thanks Rick.

All Divisions accounted for...!

[Guest Darrell]

........ Even more bizarre was a way to have NOT had the Defensive Sector bar-- if I recall correctly, that applied only VERY specifically to troops who arrived for one of the "Offensive" bars without spending a day in line BEFOREHAND, nor any time in line at any time afterwards.

........

Like this one

[Guest Darrell]

SOMME, DEFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR (attributable to one of the following divisions - 27th, 30th, 33rd, 80th):

Obverse:

Edited March 20, 2008 by Darrell