WWI? Era Pith helmet and case

[jholl72]

Hey guys,

Picked this up at auction this weekend.

They belong to the same man Philip de Lacy Deare Passy. His family immigrated to the US around 1880. Philip was born in Nebraska in 1887. By 1901 his family shows up in the census for Kingston Ontario and he is listed as 14 years old.

He enrolled in the Royal Military College in Kingston in 1904 and graduated in 1907. He served in the permanent force Royal Canadian Engineers from 1907 to at least 1927, the date on the helmet tin.

I am currently trying to pull his service file from the archives to flesh out his career. I did search the gazette and came up empty handed.

Can someone please tell me the correct terminology for this style of pith helmet, under what conditions these were worn and what date might this helmet be from??? Also, what is the significance of the cuff design and the markings on the collar?

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited February 17, 2008 by jholl72

[jholl72]

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[jholl72]

There are two holes to the front of the helmet for presumably a helmet plate, what would the correct one look like for this helmet??

The chin strap is also missing, what would the correct chin strap look like and would anyone know of someone selling the required parts?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Peter_Suciu]

There are two holes to the front of the helmet for presumably a helmet plate, what would the correct one look like for this helmet??

The chin strap is also missing, what would the correct chin strap look like and would anyone know of someone selling the required parts?

Hi Jeff--

These helmets were worn with a Canadian militia plate, but I don't know how late these were used. This is the Foreign Service Helmet, which was first used in 1878. But these were mostly out of service in the British army by World War I.

Officers worn these with a chinchain for dress, and there were simple leather straps for other times. You can generally find a chinchain on eBay, but this looks fine without it.

Is there a maker label in the helmet? Very nice set. I would love to find a complete Canadian helmet with the militia plate. I've been looking high and low for one.

PS

[Stuart Bates]

Jeff,

this helmet was known as the Colonial pattern Cork Helmet and probably dates from the late 1890s. Shame there is no maker's label to the interior.

The Canadian forces adopted the Wolseley helmet in 1910 (thanks Clive) in place of this style.

The plate would probably have followed the style of the Royal Engineers ie. the Royal Coat of Arms with the motto 'Quo Fas et Gloria Du######' on the lower scroll and 'Ubique' on the upper. I think I have read that 'Canada' was sometimes used on the upper scroll and 'Royal Canadian Engineers' on the bottom scroll. I am no expert on the Canadian Military Forces but there are plenty of members who are.

Stuart

Good grief! we have censorship - Du###### was converted from D.u.c.u.n.t

Edited February 29, 2008 by Stuart Bates

[Peter_Suciu]

The Canadian forces adopted the Wolseley helmet in 1910 (thanks Clive) in place of this style.

That late? Good to know. I knew it was a bit later in Canada!

[jholl72]

Hi Peter and Stuart,

Thanks for the information regarding this helmet. I will be on the look out for a chin chain and helmet plate to complete the group.

There is no makers label inside the helmet, just the service number and a small round sticker with 21 1/2 handwritten on it.

Further to Passy's career, he was in RMC 1904-1907. Active force RCE 1907-1918, when he went overseas. He was a Lt. in 1910-1911 and was in the UK(reason unknown for now). The tin is dated 1927 coming home to Ottawa and he also served in the RCAF in WWII(unconfirmed as of yet). The service file and communication file between the British and Canadian Governments regarding Passy's travel and pay have been obtained but I have not seen them yet.

This is proving to be a very interesting group to research.

I would like to ask one more question, the one everyone hates to answer, but hopefully you will indulge me. What is the value on something like this? This is outside my normal collecting scope and I haven't been able to find an original for sale online for comparison purposes.

This set is not and will not be for sale, I bought it at auction and would like to know how I did value wise. It was not a cheap purchase, at least for me.

[Peter_Suciu]

I would like to ask one more question, the one everyone hates to answer, but hopefully you will indulge me. What is the value on something like this?

It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

But I would say that the helmets have really been on the rise in recent years. So well over $2000US anyway.

[servicepub]

In spite of Canada's adoption of the Wolseley in 1910 to replace the style known, in Canada, as the Universal Pattern, the helmet shown here is still worn by senior cadets at RMC, while others wear a 'pill-box' cap. The "671" is his cadet number which indicates that his helmet was the one he wore at RMC and which he continued to wear in his post-RMC career as an officer in the Royal Canadian Engineers. He could do this as he was in possession of the earlier pattern prior to the change-over and was entitled to continue wearing it until it wore out.

Helmet plates for RMC are often found on e-bay at under $70.00 but you would have to remove the pugaree. Alternatively, keep the pugaree (which is a real beaut!) and get an RCE pugaree badge - which is simply the RCE cap badge of the era. If restored to an RMC helmet then it would display well with the tunic. If restored as an RCE helmet then the uniform would not be a match.

The tunic cuffs are just the standard cuff details for the scarlet tunic of the era and the two 'stripes" on the collar indicate the wearer's 'rank' at RMC.

[Peter_Suciu]

Helmet plates for RMC are often found on e-bay at under $70.00 but you would have to remove the pugaree. Alternatively, keep the pugaree (which is a real beaut!) and get an RCE pugaree badge - which is simply the RCE cap badge of the era. If restored to an RMC helmet then it would display well with the tunic. If restored as an RCE helmet then the uniform would not be a match.

Good stuff Clive! Great information.

But alternatively Jeff could just display as is too? I know that the RMC wouldn't have likely worn the pugaree, but to me that would be a shame to remove it, in part because you might never be able to get it on quite as nicely.

Very nice group!

[jholl72]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for indulging me and answering that question. I realize that it is worth what someone would pay for it, but since I am not going to sell it I was curious as to the value.

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the Canadian specifics on this grouping. I won't be removing the pugaree, if Mr. Passy left it on this long it is not up to me to remove it.

I may just get an RCE cap badge and see what it looks like on the helmet and display with the uniform anyway. After all, I will know they don't belong together and so will knowledgable collectors, but for the most part no one will probably even notice.

Alternatively, I will leave it as is and display with the uniform, again it will look nice and if not entirely historically correct, at least they were at one worn together.

[Stuart Bates]

Jeff,

I saw a similar helmet go for ?1,020 on eBay this week and it was in very poor condition in comparison to yours and did not have the accompanying storage/transit tin. I think that Peter's estimate of US$2,000+ is close to the mark.

Stuart