Did or Not the Duke of Connaught received the Sachsen-Koburg-Gotha Medals

[lilo]

Hi All,

I would like your opinion about the fact if the Duke of Connaught (a British Field Marshal) received or NOT the following medals :

- 'Sachsen -Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Jubilee Medal Alfred & Marie, 1899'

(this medal was issued to commemorate the 25? wedding year of Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh and brother of Field Marshal Duke of Connaught).

and

-'Sachsen-Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Medal Carl Eduard & Adelheid, 1905',

(this medal was issued to commemorate the wedding of Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Albany and nephew of Field Marshal Duke of Connaught).

Please bear in mind that :

1) From two different articles published on the newspaper : 'The Times', I have proof that the Duke of Connaught was absent on both events (1899 and 1905);

2) Both these medals were awarded to those who took an important part in the proceedings.

I have discussed this with a couple of very knowledged collectors and they had the exact opposite opinion :

- one stated that as the Duke of Connaught wasn't present at the events these medals commemorated and as these medals were awarded to persons that took an important part in the proceedings, the Duke DIDN'T received them.

- the other stated that : 'although formally they belonged to state decorations, they were in fact semi-private awards of the ruling family, awarded mostly to the individuals who had participated in the festivities or in preparations to them (so are the British coronation and jubilee medals). I have no information if the Field Marshal Duke of Connaught received the medals, but as he was a prominent member of the Saxe-Coburg family it is more likely that he did than that he didn't - no matter whether he had taken part in the ceremonies or not.'

What I would like to know is your opinion about what do you think as more probable that the Duke DIDN'T received the 2 medals or that he DID received them (may be as an informal gift) ??

Many Thanks for your Help and Awaiting to hear your guess

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited January 31, 2009 by lilo

[Wild Card]

Greetings Lilo,

For what it is worth, I can confirm that with regard to German decorations, Arthur Duke of Connaught held the collar to the Order of the Black Eagle, the Pour le Merite and the grand commander?s cross (again, a collar) to the King?s House Order of Hohenzollern, all of which are Prussian orders.

As to the two Saxon awards about which you asked, hopefully some of the more qualified Forum researchers will find the answers. Personally, considering the evidence presented, I am inclined to believe that he would have received them.

Good luck on your search,

Wild Card

[James Hoard]

Hi All,

I would like your opinion about the fact if the Duke of Connaught (a British Field Marshal) received or NOT the following medals :

- 'Sachsen -Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Jubilee Medal Alfred & Marie, 1899'

(this medal was issued to commemorate the 25? wedding year of Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Edinburgh and brother of Field Marshal Duke of Connaught).

and

-'Sachsen-Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Medal Carl Eduard & Adelheid, 1905',

(this medal was issued to commemorate the wedding of Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Albany and nephew of Field Marshal Duke of Connaught).

Please bear in mind that :

1) From two different articles published on the newspaper : 'The Times', I have proof that the Duke of Connaught was absent on both events (1899 and 1905);

2) Both these medals were awarded to those who took an important part in the proceedings.

I have discussed this with a couple of very knowledged collectors and they had the exact opposite opinion :

- one stated that as the Duke of Connaught wasn't present at the events these medals commemorated and as these medals were awarded to persons that took an important part in the proceedings, the Duke DIDN'T received them.

- the other stated that : 'although formally they belonged to state decorations, they were in fact semi-private awards of the ruling family, awarded mostly to the individuals who had participated in the festivities or in preparations to them (so are the British coronation and jubilee medals). I have no information if the Field Marshal Duke of Connaught received the medals, but as he was a prominent member of the Saxe-Coburg family it is more likely that he did than that he didn't - no matter whether he had taken part in the ceremonies or not.'

What I would like to know is your opinion about what do you think as more probable that the Duke DIDN'T received the 2 medals or that he DID received them (may be as an informal gift) ??

Many Thanks for your Help and Awaiting to hear your guess

Best Regards

Lilo

Hello Lilo,

While it is true that this type of award is given "to the individuals who had participated in the festivities or in preparations to them", ithey are commemmoratives and it is usually the case that very many more people receive them. At least that is the case with British Coronation and Jubilee medals. Indeed, with these it is true to say that more people who didn't attend received them than did attend the actual events.

In the case of the UK 1937 Coronation and 1935 Jubilee medal they were automatically given to every ruling prince and his/her heir apparent. In India alone this meant over 500 states, before one starts counting Burma, Malaysia, Nigeria, etc. In the cases of Heirs Apparent I know of at least one case where the boy was born in 1937 itself and was so young that he hadn't even been given a personal name and is listed in the roll as "Yuvraj of X, unnamed".

To me, it is inconceivable that the Duke of Connaught would not have received the wedding commemorative of his elder brother in 1899, whether he was there at the actual celebrations or not. The medal commemorated the anniversary itself. Not really the event of its celebration. Supposing the celebratory events had to be postponed or cancelled for say bad weather or illness? Would the medal have been distributed? My answer would be surely yes, because there would still have been an anniversary. Just not a "party".

Cheers,

James

[lilo]

Hello Wild Card / James,

Many, Many Thanks for your ?deep? comments : I greatly have appreciated them !

Best Regards

Lilo

[lilo]

Hello Wild Card / James,

May I ask to see - and if possible to give your opinion also - the following link : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33771 ?

Best Regards

Lilo

[James Hoard]

Hello Wild Card / James,

May I ask to see - and if possible to give your opinion also - the following link : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33771 ?

Best Regards

Lilo

Major-General The Rt Hon The Earl of Athlone married, while HSH Prince Alexander of Teck, Duke Carl Edouard's sister. But the marriage only took place in 1904. His wife, HRH Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone lived to a great age and attended the Silver Jubilee of Queen Elizabeth II in 1977, having attended all the Jubilees since 1887. She used to be very close to her brother but, of course, she and her husband remained in England while he went to Germany. He husband had a distinguished military career, received the DSO during the Boer War and the CMG during the Great War, became a Major-General in 1918, and later served as Governor-General of both South Africa and Canada.

Please note that Earls and above should nout he termed "Sir", even though, for some reason Debrett's Peerage insists on using this incorrect style. Earls and above were classed as Princes and had this in their most formal style. Dukes were styled "The Most High, Noble and Potent Prince (Christain names only), Duke of (place name)". Earls and Marquesses have similar styles but I cannot quite remember them without looking up some references.

Cheers,

James

[James Hoard]

Here's a picture of the Earl of Athlone, then Prince Alexander of Teck, at about the time of his marriage, ca 1904.

Perhaps you will be able to spot the medals you are looking for.

Cheers,

James

[lilo]

Hi James,

Many Thanks for the photo you posted above.

If possible, I would like to have your opinion on the fact if the Earl of Athlone DID or NOT received the :

'Sachsen -Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Jubilee Medal Alfred & Marie, 1899'

See the following link : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33771 ?

Best Regards

Lilo

[James Hoard]

Hi James,

Many Thanks for the photo you posted above.

If possible, I would like to have your opinion on the fact if the Earl of Athlone DID or NOT received the :

'Sachsen -Koburg-Gotha, Wedding Jubilee Medal Alfred & Marie, 1899'

See the following link : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33771 ?

Best Regards

Lilo

I do not know for certain one way or the other. That is why I posted the picture, so that you could work it out yourself.

[lilo]

Hi James,

again thanks for the answer.

Regarding the medals on his medal rack I have identified the following :

1) DSO (29.11.1900)

2) Jubilee 1887 + bar 1897;

3) Coronation 1902;

4) British South Africa Company medal no bar;

5) QSA + 5 b. Paardeberg, Dreifontein, Relief of Kimberley, Relief of Mafeking,Tsv;

6) ??????

Do you have an Higher Resolution of the above photo that Can Help me in identifying the last Order on his Medal Rack ?

Please let me know so that I can send you my email address by PM.

Awaiting to hear from you

All the Best

Lilo

Edited February 2, 2009 by lilo

[lilo]

From the : http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33807

Hello lilo,

Speaking of which, I mentioned in your other thread that Arthur Duke of Connaught "...held the collar to the Order of the Black Eagle, the Pour le Merite and the grand commander's cross (again, a collar) to the King's House Order of Hohenzollern, all of which are Prussian orders". While the Black Eagle and Hohenzollern are understandable, does anyone know what he did to get the Pour le Merite? George Seymour once referred to the Duke observing the bombardment of a port from the deck of a Prussian warship.

Perhaps some of the Saxon experts (Rick, Stogie...?) can clarify this awards to foreigners issue. Incidentally, have you checked with any of the British experts? I would think that his award list would be in British archives.

Wild Card

Hello Wild Card,

The German Orders the Duke of Connaught received were not the only you listed see a complete, I think, list below:

• Saxony, Order of the Rue Crown;
• Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Silver Jubilee Medal of the Wedding of Duke Alfred and Duchess Marie of 1899;
• Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, Wedding Medal of Duke Carl-Eduard and Duchess Adelheid of 1905;
• Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order (2nd Model post 1864);
• Prussia , Black Eagle, Knight (17.2.1872);
• Prussia, Red Eagle, Grand Cross (17.2.1872);
• Prussia, Royal House Order of Hohenzollern without swords + collar;
• Prussia, Order 'Pour le Merite', (27 Nov. 1882);
• Hesse, Milit?r Verdienstkreuz 1870/71 (or Military Merit Cross 1870/71);
• Baden, House Order of Fidelity, Knight (7.9.1906).

Regarding the Pour le M?rite given to the duke of Connaught, it was a 'Godet' designed piece but made in gold as part of the British Royal Collection. Wilhelm I awarded the badge to the Duke Arthur of Connaught in November 1882 in recognition of the role played by the Prince in the battle of Tel-el-Kebir (Egypt). The suspension ring shows an engraved "G". This piece was displayed during the exhibition in 1996 at Holyroadhouse, Edinburgh and Windsor castle (see: "Royal Insignia of British and Foreign Orders of Chivalry from the Royal collection" : the photo of this particular Blu Max is published in this book for this exhibition as number 39.)

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 3, 2009 by lilo

[James Hoard]

Do you have an Higher Resolution of the above photo that Can Help me in identifying the last Order on his Medal Rack ?

Please let me know so that I can send you my email address by PM.

Lilo

Sorry Lilo, that is the best I have.

I think the last may be the Saxe-Ernestine House Ordrr with Swords.

Cheers

James

[Appy]

I agree with James on the confusing misuse of titles for so many. For HRH Prince Arthur of the United Kingdom, First Duke of Connaught & Strathearn, he happened to be a prince (3rd son of Queen Victoria), but also a titled duke. As i recall it, royal decree dictated that his grandson would no longer warrant a princely (HRH) title, and would begin the use of the ducal title's prefix "His Grace" and also begin using the legally recognized surname "Windsor" -- all a bit confusing.

Meanwhile, Prince Arthur was, or course, married to a Prussian princess - Luise Margarete von Preussen - who was the grand-daughter of the "Red Prince" Karl von Preussen. Prinz Karl was nicknamed the "Red Prince" due to his war service as commander of Husaren-Regiment von Zieten (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 3. it is no coincidence, then, that Prince Arthur found himself named as oberst und chef of the Von Zieten Hussars. If you look for it, you can find an image of Princes Albert Edward (the Prince of Wales, later Edward VII), Alfred (the British Duke of Edinburgh, and German Duke of Saxe Coburg & Gotha), and Arthur (the aforementioned 1st Duke of C&S) in German parade uniforms. Arthur wears what must have been stunning in color - an all red hussar colonel's parade dress uniform. He wears the PLM at his throat and the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern collar chain, the sash of the Saxe-Ernestine House Order's Grand Cross, and the breast stars of the British Order of the Garter, Prussian Order of the Black Eagle, and the Saxe-Ernestine House Order's Grand Cross, among other things. His medal bar appears to have a similar combination of British and German awards - from Bath to Hesse, and back to Saxe-Coburg & Gotha.

Unfortunately, none of this pedantic contribution proves whether or not he was ever awarded the commemorative medals for the wedding anniversary of his brother or for the wedding of his nephew.

I concur that these were frequently only awarded to attendees of the formal celebrations. In Russia, Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (the tsar's surviving brother) was on the outs with Nicholas II during the tricentennial celebration for the Romanov monarchy, and was barred from the festivities. Thus, he was also excluded from earning the medal for "being there."

On the other hand, it is entirely possible / plausible that a warmly regarded brother and an idolizing nephew reserved a few of these as gifts for favorite siblings / uncles such as Prince Arthur. Let me put it this way... who would be in the position to tell the dukes that either was technically "out of line" for awarding these medals to Arthur, had they done so? Were they awarded, I suspect that few would really have had a problem with it.

[lilo]

Hi Appy,

many thanks for your contribution : very interesting !

Best

Lilo