Austria-Hungary What Hungarian award ?

[lilo]

Gents,

Perhaps, it is a bit late, but, nevertheless, I deem it necessary to dispel some misunderstandings with regard to the questions posed. My first remark is that the three questions are extremely intelligent and appropriate.

1.) Your understanding is totally correct, lilo. The turning date was 23 December 1935. Before that date there was "CROSS", after that date it became "ORDER". The Crosses and Orders differ from each other in the number of degrees, their names, sizes and shapes too.

2.) In 1929 there was only green ribbon for the Merit Crosses both for military and civilian persons. Foreigners could also receive those awards only on green ribbons. The war ribbon was introduced on 14 April 1939 only.

3.) Yes, that is the correct ribbon, the green one, but there should be a miniature of the Cross on it. For the Grand Crosses and Crosses I. Class 25 mm in diameter, for the Crosses II. Class: 18 mm, III. Class: 15 mm, IV. Class: 12 mm and the V. Class with no miniature, just the plain green ribbon.

Regards,

cimbineus

Hello cimbineus,

Many, many thanks for your compliments and striking response.

So, in conclusion, Baden Powell received the 'Hungarian, Cross of Merit' without Swords and suspended from a plain green ribbon, isn'it ?

Thanks again

Lilo

[cimbineus]

Hello Lilo,

You are welcome! And my answer is: definitely, yes! The swords came also in 1939. So, if he received the award in 1929, as you said earlier, your perception is 100% correct!

Kind regards,

cimbineus

[lilo]

Hello cimbineus,

Posted below is a photo of an award given to an Italian High Ranking Officer (unfortunately, I don't know the year of award).

I know that the photo is not clear (it was taken in a museum through a glass) but if possible I would like to know if you can establish if he received the 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit ?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited January 5, 2010 by lilo

[cimbineus]

Hello cimbineus,

Posted below is a photo of an award given to an Italian High Ranking Officer (unfortunately, I don't know the year of award).

I know that the photo is not clear (it was taken in a museum through a glass) but if possible I would like to know if you can establish if he received the 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit ?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best Regards

Lilo

Hi Lilo,

I am very sorry, but the quality of the picture does not allow me to tell you for sure what it is. The difference is very narrow between those two. If you hold either of them in your hands, you can say immediately which is what. Nevertheless, my best guess is that in the picture we see "CROSS", issued before 1935. (But, please, remember that it could be awarded up to the late 30s!!!)

Regards,

cimbineus

Edited January 12, 2010 by cimbineus

[lilo]

Hi cimbineus,

Many thanks for your guess : I have greatly appreciated it !

Kind Regards

Lilo

[lilo]

Hello cimbineus,

I'm re-opening this old post in the hope that you can give me an answer to my questions below :

I have below posted a photo of an award given to an Italian High Ranking Officer : Unfortunately, I don't know the year of award.

My 2 questions :

1) Can you tell me which class is represented (neck badge + breast star) here ?

2) Is it possible for you, to exactly establish if he received the 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit ?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited May 13, 2012 by lilo

[cimbineus]

Hi Lilo,

This is an "Order" with the Star. The Hungarian Merit Order, Commander's Cross with the Star. Most probably awarded between 1935 and 1940.

Here is a picture for you showing both, the Hungarian Merit Cross, II. Class with the Star - 1923-1935, and the Hungarian Merit Order, Commander's Cross with the Star - 1935-1945.

Regards,

cimbineus

[cimbineus]

And here is a closer view:

[cimbineus]

And the Star

Edited May 12, 2012 by cimbineus

[lilo]

Hello cimbineus,

Many tanks for the patience and kindness that every time you show in answering my numerous questions !

Also, many thanks for posting the very beautiful photos of this Order.

I’m much interested in this order I would like to know more things, especially :

1. From what particulars you are so sure that, in the last photo I posted, the award represented is the 'ORDER' and NOT the 'CROSS' of Merit ?
   

1. May I ask you why you were not so sure in the previous above points : see #28 and #29 ?
   

1. Regarding the class of the Order in the last photo I posted (that formed by neck badge + breast star) you said me that it is the ‘Commander's Cross with the Star’ : I would like to know if there is another term that I can use to name both pieces as, for example, that of ‘Grand Officer’ (I hope you'll understand what I mean)
   

1. I greatly appreciate your personal opinion on the following matter…
   

Considering :

- that the Italians and the Hungarians were enemies during WW1;

- that the Cross(Order) of Merit was instituted in 1922;

- that the '

CROSS

'

of

Merit,

as you have said above

: ‘

could be awarded up to the late 30s

’

;

and with the due exceptions, can we state that almost all the awards of this Order - made to the Italians - are of the 'ORDER' and NOT of the 'CROSS' of Merit ?

Awaiting to hear from you

All the Best

Lilo

[cimbineus]

Hi Lilo,

Let me start with certain explanations, because this is a very complex question and not so easy to understand. Let us go step-by-step.

Miklos Horthy was not the king of Hungary, but “only” the Regent. The only difference in between those two was that based on the Hungarian Constitution and laws, that as a Regent he had no right of founding Orders. He decided to solve this problem by not using the word “Order” in the names of the first awards and, by naming them “Crosses”, he circumvent this problem.

Approximately 15 years later his strengthened legitimacy allowed him to put things right, and give the Hungarian highest awards their proper names. That is when the “Crosses” became “Orders” in 1935.

Second, is the appearance of the “Crosses” and “Orders”. There were two basic types of them. Those, made in Vienna before 1929, the so called “early type” Crosses, and those made in Budapest after 1929, the so called “latter type” of them. Those two types can be clearly recognised.

Third, is the Hungarian regulations of those time to return awards after awarding the person with a higher class of the award, or after the death of the recipient. More over, those returned Crosses could be awarded again, and again. And what is more, the clerks while changing the ribbons, made NO (!) differentiation between Grand Crosses and Commander’s Crosses, so, after a while those two became interchangeable. Regardless of their size, from 49 mm to 54 mm they all could be either Grand Crosses or Commander’s Crosses. Well, c’est la vie...

My last remark is: please, note that those dates/years do not coincide (1929-1932-1935) just to complicate things even more.

Consequences:

1. Everything awarded before 1935 was “Cross” by its name.
   
2. Everything awarded after 1935 was “Order” by its name.
   
3. The early types of the award could be awarded or re-awarded until 1945, so, the “early type” itself can give no guaranty if it was a “Cross” or an “Order”! And, it is strange, but true, that any early piece could even be both, actually. First it definitely was a “Cross”, but if it was returned and later re-awarded and re-re-awarded, after 1935 it could become an “Order”.
   
4. And, vice-versa, since the “latter type” of the Crosses appeared in 1929 but their names still were “Cross” up until 1935, so, if you see a “latter type” award, you simply cannot tell for sure if it was a “Cross” or an “Order” originally.
   
5. All these mean, that in general, all types of the award could be either “Crosses” or “Orders” by their names, or even both of them, and only the knowledge of the date when the decoration was awarded can give the necessary assurance about its exact name.
   

Regarding the class of the Order in the last photo I posted (that formed by neck badge + breast star) you said me that it is the ‘Commander's Cross with the Star’ : I would like to know if there is another term that I can use to name both pieces as, for example, that of ‘Grand Officer’ (I hope you'll understand what I mean)

My answer is: Commander’s Cross and Grand Officer’s Cross are basically similar things, but those names sometimes can ba confusing too. The Hungarian names of the Classe of the Hungarian Order of Merit are:

• Grand Cross
  
• Commander’s Cross with the Star
  
• Commander’s Cross
  
• Officer’s Cross
  
• Knight’s Cross
  

„.. can we state that almost all the awards of this Order - made to the Italians – are of the 'ORDER ' and NOT of the 'CROSS ' of Merit ?

My answer is a definite YES!

From what particulars you are so sure that, in the last photo I posted, the award represented is the 'ORDER ' and NOT the 'CROSS ' of Merit ?

I must admit, I am not so sure at all. As you could see, to judge about this can be very tricky sometimes. This was my feeling looking at the pieces, but let me recapitulate my previous phrase and correct myself in a certain way. In the picture we can see the “latter type” of the award, made after 1929 and it could be awarded either as “Cross” (20-25%) or as “Order” (75-80%).

Regards,

cimbineus

[cimbineus]

Lilo,

I appreciate your interest towards the Hungarian Order of Merit, and here is a bonus picture for you, one of my prize-winning photographs from 2010.

Regards,

cimbineus

Edited May 12, 2012 by cimbineus

[cimbineus]

Lilo,

And here are three Commander’s Crosses in cases:

Regards,

cimbineus

Edited May 12, 2012 by cimbineus

[lilo]

Hello Cimbineus,

What a fantastic explanation !

I have read it with GREAT interest and pleasure (more than a time); through it, I have fully understood the difficulty in establishing if the award was a CROSS or an ORDER and that only a visual handmade exam or the knowledge of the awarding date can give a certainty.

However, for what has been discussed above and for what I have understood, from here on, I’ll assume that, in regards of the awards made to the Italians, the probability that they received the ORDER instead of the Cross is the highest in regards of the probability.

Following, I’m posting a photo of the award given to Italian Admiral Luigi RIZZO by Miklos Horthy (both were direct opponents during WW1). This photo should be a little more clear and it will give you a better possibility to establish if it is a 'ORDER' or the 'CROSS' of Merit : would you give me a confirm, please ?

Best Regards

Mauro

P.S. Many thanks for posting futher photos of this splendid Order, it’s a pleasure to admire it !

Edited May 13, 2012 by lilo

[cimbineus]

Hi Lilo,

Yes, it is the "latter type" of the award, from late '30s, early '40s, and that is the Commander’s Cross with the Star of the Hungarian Order of Merit.

Regards,

cimbineus

[lilo]

Hi cimbineus,

Many, many thanks for your very precious Help : I really have appreciated it !

Kind Regards

Lilo

[lilo]

Hello again cimbineus,

I found a couple of photos that I think are a little more clear in respect of those I posted at the start of this topic.

The first following photo is a better pic of the award given to General Giuseppe VALLE, that I already had posted on my post #28

- What do you think : is it an ‘ORDER’ or a ‘Cross’ ?

- Which class is it ?

Edited May 13, 2012 by lilo

[lilo]

This, instead, is the award made to a Lt. Col. Umberto MADDALENA :

Again….

- Is it an ‘ORDER’ or a ‘Cross’ ?

- Which class is it ?

Edited May 13, 2012 by lilo

[cimbineus]

Hi Lilo,

I am sorry for being silent for a while, but I am fairly busy these weeks. I hope that my answers are still within the 8-day politeness margin.

Unfortunately your pictures are not clear enough to judge about the exact type of the Orders. Nevertheless, we can say for sure (100%) that Lt. Col. Umberto MADDALENA received the „Cross”. Why am I so confident? Since he died in 1931 he could only receive the Merit Cross, because the change from “Cross” to “Order” happened in 1935. The Cross shown in the picture basically can be both, the “early type” or the “latter type”. I simply cannot identify neither the Cross, nor the Star.

The case of General Giuseppe VALLE is a bit more complicated, since he lived a long life that covered both “Cross” and “Order” periods, so he could receive both of them. Here the picture does not help us too much either. However, my best guess is that he also received the award before 1935, i.e. he also received the Merit Cross 1^st Class. I would give to this possibility 70% probability.

Here is one more help for you. If you are lucky enough to see the cases too, the finish of the Coat of Arms of Hungary on them also can tell you the type of the award, if it was made before or after 1929. (In the picture you can see the cases of the Officer's Cross of both types.)

Regards,

cimbineus

P.S. Lilo, if you have some time and patience, please, visit my site, the “Kitüntetés Fórum” (In English: “Awards’ Forum” – I would say) where you can find interesting picture and explanations as well. You can use the translator, but many of us speak English, so, you can ask question too.

http://medals.extra.hu/index.php

[lilo]

Hi cimbineus,

Again I must thank you very much for the answers you gave me.

In the next future I'll send a friend of mine to the museum where these awards are held for taking more clear photos that I'll post here in the hoping that they will be more clear than those I posted here till now.

Kind Regards

Lilo

Edited May 19, 2012 by lilo

[cimbineus]

Hi Lilo,

Well, some better quality pictures can help a bit, no doubt about that, but only to define if the particular Order or Star is an early type or a latter one. Even looking at a good quality picture one cannot decide for 100% the dilemma of “Cross” or “Order”. But, if this question is so important for you, I wonder, why do not you send a simple e-mail to your Military Museum or its Archive and ask about the date when those gentlemen received their awards? A simple question and the answer can dispel all your doubts, since if the date was before 1935, it is a “Cross”, and if it was 1935 or after, so, it is an “Order” regardless of its physical appearance or type. It is as simple as that.

Regards,

cimbineus

[lilo]

Hi cimbineus,

You are quite corret on saying this but, unfortunately, I have already contacted the musuem and they answered me that they don't realase such informations. This is the reason of all those questions to you that you have kindly answered.

Many thanks again for your help

Regards

Lilo