Austria-Hungary What Hungarian award ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

I'm studying the Full medal entitlement of Lord Baden Powell, the founder of the Scout movement.

I know that on August 1929 He received the so called : Hungarian Order of Merit (please see the below London Gazette entry) :

Whitehall, August 8, 1929.

The KING has been pleased to give and grant unto Lieutenant-General Sir Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell, Bt.., G.C.M.G., G.C.V.O., K.C.B., His Majesty's Royal licence and authority to wear the Insignia of the First Class of the Hungarian Order of Merit, which Decoration has been conferred upon him by His Serene Highness the Regent of Hungary, in recognition of valuable services rendered by him.

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 9 AUGUST, 1929. 5213

Consulting the following web site : http://www.akm.externet.hu/rendjel/adatok/horthy/mer_en.htm, I have understood that in 1929 there was NO an 'ORDER' but a 'CROSS' of Merit.

I know that it is a post WW1 award but I don't know where exactly I could post my 3 questions below, so have thought that the best place is still this one.

1^st Question

Am I right in having so understood ?

2^nd Question

Was the so called 'Order' of Merit received by Lord Baden Powell of the 'Civil' Division ?

3^rd Question

Was the colour of the ribbon of the so called 'Order' of Merit received by Lord Baden Powell in 1929, that of plain GREEN ?

I please everyone that can help me - ALSO WITH A GUESS ? to answer these 3 questions (even with a simple 'yes' or 'not' near each question : it's important to me !

Many Thanks in Advance

Best Regards

Lilo

Edited February 15, 2009 by lilo

[hunyadi]

I am going to attempt to answer these questions. This is not a WW1 award the A-H Kingdom was disbanded after WW1. In 1922 the new Royal Hungarian state came into existnace and Regent Admiral Miklos Horthy established new orders and decorations to be awarded for merits.

The term Order and Cross are more of a translation issue than most as the term is used in the full Hungarian descrition of each award. The problem resides in what constitued the "First Class" - is it the Grand Cross, Commanders Cross, Officers Cross, etc... if you had a photo of Lord Powel with this award that would help...

The term Civil Division - is another translation problem. All of the Orders of Merit were awarded with a specific ribbon. Full green was awarded to civilians, Green with red and white edges was for a military award during peace time and a red center with green and white edges was for military during times of war. Swords were added to the cross forms to desiognate service in a combat zone - what constituted a combat zone... well...

So - to sum up:

1) yep - pretty close

2) civiliain form

3) full green in color

[lilo]

I am going to attempt to answer these questions. This is not a WW1 award the A-H Kingdom was disbanded after WW1. In 1922 the new Royal Hungarian state came into existnace and Regent Admiral Miklos Horthy established new orders and decorations to be awarded for merits.

The term Order and Cross are more of a translation issue than most as the term is used in the full Hungarian descrition of each award. The problem resides in what constitued the "First Class" - is it the Grand Cross, Commanders Cross, Officers Cross, etc... if you had a photo of Lord Powel with this award that would help...

The term Civil Division - is another translation problem. All of the Orders of Merit were awarded with a specific ribbon. Full green was awarded to civilians, Green with red and white edges was for a military award during peace time and a red center with green and white edges was for military during times of war. Swords were added to the cross forms to desiognate service in a combat zone - what constituted a combat zone... well...

So - to sum up:

1) yep - pretty close

2) civiliain form

3) full green in color

Hello Hunyadi,

Many, Many thanks for your precious Help !

Unfortunately I haven't a photo of B-P wearing this 'Order'.

You have written :

Quote

All of the Orders of Merit were awarded with a specific ribbon :

- Full green was awarded to civilians;

- Green with red and white edges was for a military award during peace time;

- red centre with green and white edges was for military during times of war.

Unquote

I think that when you referred to the 'Green with red and white edges' as the ribbon given for 'a military award during peace time' you were speaking as a ribbon issued to persons belonging to the Hungarian Army and not to the 'foreigners' as Baden-Powell.

Moreover, I think that in 1929, when Baden Powell received the Hungarian award in question, He could only be considered as a 'CIVILIAN' by the Hungarians because He was not in the Hungarian Army and however, He wasn't, also, no more a British soldier as such because He retired from the British Army on to Reserve on May 7, 1910.

Last, in regards of the class of this 'Order' received by B-P, I think that when the London Gazette refers to the 1st class, it would mean that B-P received the top class (i.e. Grand Cross) and this because of the importance of the man himself and confronting this with the usual level of similar awards B-P received by other Countries for similar reasons.

So, If I have well understood, Am I right in considering that Baden Powell exactly received the: - Hungarian, 'CROSS' of Merit - 'Civil Division' (i.e. Without Swords)- with 'Full GREEN' ribbon. ???

Awaiting your (or others) replay

All the Best

Lilo

Edited February 15, 2009 by lilo

[Taz]

Lilo,

Does this help at all?

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours.htm

Regards Eddie

[lilo]

Lilo,

Does this help at all?

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours.htm

Regards Eddie

Hi Eddie,

Many Thanks also if I already knew this web site.

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 15, 2009 by lilo

[Alex K]

I am going to attempt to answer these questions. This is not a WW1 award the A-H Kingdom was disbanded after WW1. In 1922 the new Royal Hungarian state came into existnace and Regent Admiral Miklos Horthy established new orders and decorations to be awarded for merits.

The term Order and Cross are more of a translation issue than most as the term is used in the full Hungarian descrition of each award. The problem resides in what constitued the "First Class" - is it the Grand Cross, Commanders Cross, Officers Cross, etc... if you had a photo of Lord Powel with this award that would help...

The term Civil Division - is another translation problem. All of the Orders of Merit were awarded with a specific ribbon. Full green was awarded to civilians, Green with red and white edges was for a military award during peace time and a red center with green and white edges was for military during times of war. Swords were added to the cross forms to desiognate service in a combat zone - what constituted a combat zone... well...

So - to sum up:

1) yep - pretty close

2) civiliain form

3) full green in color

Here are officer and Knights crosses of the Order

[Alex K]

Hungarian Ambassador also wearing the Commanders Class. From Life/Wikipedia

[lilo]

Hi Alex,

Many Thanks for the photos.

Pending the different colours of ribbons and the presence or Not of the swords, I presume that the awards of the photos you posted are destined to different persons (i.e. Civil, Military, etc.)

Regards

Lilo

Edited February 15, 2009 by lilo

[Alex K]

Hi Alex,

Many Thanks for the photos.

Pending the different colours of ribbons and the presence or Not of the swords, I presume that the awards of the photos you posted are destined to different persons (i.e. Civil, Military, etc.)

Regards

Lilo

Hi Lilo, bit consusing, as attached an example of another ribbon, don't know if it belongs to the cross though.

regards

[Alex K]

With regards to B Powell, this link might help

regards

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-honours-hungary.htm

[hunyadi]

Lilo - here is what I can determine that he was awarded: He was give the "Magyar Eremrend Nagykerestje" Or in English "Hungarian Order of Merit, Grand Cross" - this particular grade the "1st class" was awarded with a breast star. Below is a scan of the 1939 version of the award from the book "Nagy Magyar Kitunteteskonyv" - I dont have a pre war scan of one.

[lilo]

Hi hunyadi,

Many, Many thanks for your precious help !

Best Regards

Lilo

[Alex K]

Hungarian Ambassador also wearing the Commanders Class. From Life/Wikipedia

Don't know too much about Hungarian uniforms, do any of our other experts in this field know what colour it would have been, Field grey or some more exotic colour.

thanks

[hunyadi]

"Tabori Barna" or Camp Brown....

Here is a shot of my Csendor tunic in the same color...

[Alex K]

"Tabori Barna" or Camp Brown....

Here is a shot of my Csendor tunic in the same color...

Hi hunyadi, thanks, what a fantastic set-up, are the decorations original to the tunic/owner?, thanks for showing

regards

Alex

[hunyadi]

Hi Alex -

The decorations are not "original" to the tunic, but they are the best bet. The EK2 was on the tunic and the loops for the EK1 are a perfect fit, thankfuly the other Hungarian orders and decorations would either be too loose or too tight - so the EK1 is the most plausable. The tunic dates from 1939 to 1944 - and there are Csendor Year Books which gave the names, ranks and awards for all of the men in the Csendor - less than 20,000 at one time. However the only year books that have surfaced in any library are the 1923 (so he would have been a lower officer) and 1944 which there is a possible match - but not 100%. At any given time there were only 8 Lt. Col in the Csendor 3 Col and one general. The loops for the medal bar are probably conservative as you can see there are loops for the ribbon bar on the tunic as well - the loops seem to hold three rows of ribbons or 12 medals... so who knows - only time and luck may tell.

[Alex K]

Hi Alex -

The decorations are not "original" to the tunic, but they are the best bet. The EK2 was on the tunic and the loops for the EK1 are a perfect fit, thankfuly the other Hungarian orders and decorations would either be too loose or too tight - so the EK1 is the most plausable. The tunic dates from 1939 to 1944 - and there are Csendor Year Books which gave the names, ranks and awards for all of the men in the Csendor - less than 20,000 at one time. However the only year books that have surfaced in any library are the 1923 (so he would have been a lower officer) and 1944 which there is a possible match - but not 100%. At any given time there were only 8 Lt. Col in the Csendor 3 Col and one general. The loops for the medal bar are probably conservative as you can see there are loops for the ribbon bar on the tunic as well - the loops seem to hold three rows of ribbons or 12 medals... so who knows - only time and luck may tell.

Makes a very nice display. What's the badge above the EKI ?

thanks

[Riley1965]

What is the medal on the yellow ribbon?

Doc

[Alex K]

Hungarian Ambassador also wearing the Commanders Class. From Life/Wikipedia

One more annoying request, anyone identify the medals on his spange, I recognise a few but others are a mystery.

regards

Alex

[hunyadi]

1- Military Merit IIIrd Class

2- Signum Laudis in Silver

3- Signum Laudis in Bronze

4- Signum Laudis in Silver / (possibly) Bronze (Horthy era 1922 issue)

5- Hungarian WW1 Service Medal

6- Long Service Medal IInd Class

7- Long Service Medal IIIrd Class

8- Frans Joseph Commemorative Medal 1908

9 -Austrian WW1 Service Medal

10- Bulgarian WW1 Service Medal

11- Maria Knights Cross

Edited February 20, 2009 by hunyadi

[hunyadi]

What is the medal on the yellow ribbon?

Doc

Hi Doc - this is the Delvidek Commemorative Medal for participation in the Balkan Campaign of 1941. The ribbon is actualy 1/2 cornflower blue and 1/2 yellow.

[Alex K]

1- Military Merit IIIrd Class

2- Signum Laudis in Silver

3- Signum Laudis in Bronze

4- Signum Laudis in Silver / (possibly) Bronze (Horthy era 1922 issue)

5- Hungarian WW1 Service Medal

6- Long Service Medal IInd Class

7- Long Service Medal IIIrd Class

8- Frans Joseph Commemorative Medal 1908

9 -Austrian WW1 Service Medal

10- Bulgarian WW1 Service Medal

11- Maria Knights Cross

Thanks once again

regards

Alex

[lilo]

Makes a very nice display. What's the badge above the EKI ?

thanks

Hi Alex

For the badge see the following link :

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28791

Regards

Lilo

[Alex K]

Hi Alex

For the badge see the following link :

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28791

Regards

Lilo

Hi Lilo, thanks for the link, nice badges

regards

Alex

[cimbineus]

Gents,

Perhaps, it is a bit late, but, nevertheless, I deem it necessary to dispel some misunderstandings with regard to the questions posed. My first remark is that the three questions are extremely intelligent and appropriate.

1.) Your understanding is totally correct, lilo. The turning date was 23 December 1935. Before that date there was "CROSS", after that date it became "ORDER". The Crosses and Orders differ from each other in the number of degrees, their names, sizes and shapes too.

2.) In 1929 there was only green ribbon for the Merit Crosses both for military and civilian persons. Foreigners could also receive those awards only on green ribbons. The war ribbon was introduced on 14 April 1939 only.

3.) Yes, that is the correct ribbon, the green one, but there should be a miniature of the Cross on it. For the Grand Crosses and Crosses I. Class 25 mm in diameter, for the Crosses II. Class: 18 mm, III. Class: 15 mm, IV. Class: 12 mm and the V. Class with no miniature, just the plain green ribbon.

Regards,

cimbineus