Whaling gun?

[helen]

hi,

can anyone help pin down this object we found in our museum stores?

Breech-loading, rifled percussion firearm, 68 inches long with a hinged spike on the underside of the brass barrel. Turkish marks.

The info says it was collected after the battle at El Fasher, Darfur Province, Sudan in 1916, but may have originally been obtained on the Red Sea coast and then transported 1000 miles by camel to the Sudan!

Original 1950s label also says it is a whaling gun (spike to fix it to bulwarks of a ship) but didn't think whaling guns were made of brass as it would rust. Plus I thought whaling guns mostly used harpoons (wouldn't fit in a rifled barrel?) Perhaps it is a rampart gun instead? What kind of ammunition would it have used?

Any suggestions or comments welcome. Sorry for the not-so-great photograph.

Thanks,

Helen

[Mervyn Mitton]

All things are possible , but I would feel a rampart gun is more likely the origin. Also, keep in mind that the Turks are a seafaring nation and this type of large bore gun - with a spike - was often used on board early ships to repel boarders. They could fire one solid shot - or, an amount of small shot , which would be useful against numbers of people. Had it been English, it would have been a valuable item - check with the Tower Armouries at Leeds. With location - that part of the World is a 'melting pot' and weapons tend to move around. How big is the bore?

[helen]

Mervyn,

Thanks for your reply - what you say about the nature of the region it came from/was used in makes sense. I posted this item on another weapons forum and again, the consensus that it was used to repel raids rather than shoot at marine life! Whether this be on a ship or from ramparts is not clear however, though I presume it would be hard to load a rifled gun on a pitching ship? It has an approximate one inch bore (sorry, don't have the gun to hand to measure accurately) but presumably it took a cartridge rather than shot as it is breech-loading? Beginning to think that the Sudanese simply imported it from Turkey in order to defend El Fasher town from the Anglo-Egyptian forces in 1916 since the Sudanese allied with the Ottomans (Turks) that year.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Helen, the spike would allow it to be swung around for reloading - so land or sea is a possibility. I may have missed a point, but why do you keep saying 1916 ? The percussion cap action would date it between ( for middle east uses anyway) approx.1820-1870.

[helen]

I appreciate that it is probably a 19th century gun, but the Museum's interest is in when it was used and who by. Since we know it was used in battle at El Fasher in 1916 and this was the year the Ottomans officially joined forces with the Sudanese, it makes sense for us to say it's the latest possible date it could have come into Sudan. But you're right to make the point it would have been used much earlier than this. In addition, I didn't realise that Egypt, who took over Sudan in 1820, technically owed fealty to the Ottoman Empire. So, the fact that its a Turkish gun could mean it was traded/brought to Africa any time during the mid-late C19th. Thanks.

[horsemaster]

Being quite the gun nut I'll put my two cents in. It seem to me that I've seen pictures of men on camels with a weapon mounted to the saddle. The weapons had something like that on them. I hope that helps.

[Mervyn Mitton]

That is a good point - but, wouldn't the recoil from such a heavy weapon be too much for a camel ? Do you still have access to the photo - would be interesting to see ?

[horsemaster]

That is a good point - but, wouldn't the recoil from such a heavy weapon be too much for a camel ? Do you still have access to the photo - would be interesting to see ?

I don't think it would be. When you consider that camels carry far heavier loads. The rifle being heavy would cut the recoil by quite a bit. And the recoil would be distributed evenly over the back of the camel via the saddle. This would greatly reduce the perceived recoil. I don't even remember where I saw the picture. I do know that it had to be in a book as I was not using computers at that time.

I wonder about the caliber. .62? .68? .72? The recoil from a .58 is not bad and I know folks that shoot .68 caliber rifled muskets in Rev. War reinactments. I don't think that this weapon would hace had a hard kick at all. It probably used paper or linen cartridges. I sure wish I could get a better look at the weapon. I would like to see if there is any writing on it anywhere.

[peter monahan]

I agree with Mervyn: a 'rampart gun' rather than a whaler. harpoon guns had a far larger bore in my admittedly meager experience, to hold the butt of the Harpoon. Such things were used on boats, in small forts and, as suggested even as mobile "artillery" .69 calibre seems huge to modern shooters but I regularly fire a .75 calibre "Brown Bess" musket without discomfort or difficulty. Loaded with ball it has about the same kick as a twelve bore shotgun - nothing to alarm a camel, I wouldn't think.

Looking at the style of the piece I'd also say it was made in Europe, not Asia or the Middle East. There were hundreds of small arms makers in the nineteenth century, some of whom worked almost exclusively in the export trade, making "Dane guns", for example [smooth bore muskets for the West Africa trade, first flintlock and eventually percussion].

More shots, especially of the lock plate and breech, might help pin down the maker.

My tuppence worth!

Peter

[helen]

hello all,

thanks for your posts!

The idea of using it on a camel is interesting but probably not tenable - seriously, this thing is HEAVY. I'm fairly fit and strong but struggle to lift it on my own, let alone raise it to shoulder level. It's heavier than some solid iron Tudor hand-canons I've handled. But if it's true that some camel saddles were modified to be mounted with a gun on a spike/pivot, I'd be keen to see them.

The gun is now out of store so I will be able to take some stats - pictures of marks (there is one that is repeated over the plate, butt and barrel but difficult to describe), measurements of the bore and also weight - and post them up next week.

Cheers!

Helen

Edited June 12, 2009 by helen

[Mervyn Mitton]

That's why this forum is special - everyone weighs in with ideas..

Peter , do you belong to a black powder club, or, own one to fire privately? I would be a little nervous of the strength of the barrel ? Before I was in the chair, I took the Society to ranges to practise with our guns - we all had them here, before the regs. changed. Anyway, I thought I should fire the 12 gauge to see if I could - two people stood behind me and just managed to hold me as I went past - so, what is the recoil like on a Brown Bess ??

Helen - make little notes all over your desk - truncheons/Zulu - truncheons/Zulu !!!!!

[Mervyn Mitton]

Wouldn't it be more effective to throw the camel at the enemy ?? Nasty, vicious brutes and apart from Man, I believe they are the only other animal to carry syphilis !!!

[peter monahan]

Peter , do you belong to a black powder club, or, own one to fire privately?

Mervyn

I re-enact the War of 1812-14, a minor North American offshoot of the Napoleonic conflict. So I regularly fired Modern repro. of a Bess with powder only but have shot ball ammunition as well. Not too bad a kick as long as you're expecting it.

Helen

The repeated stamp - I believe you said on the butt? - may be a clue as to where this piece was made. A friend once owned a "hill made" copy of a Martini Henry carbine. The gunsmith - Peshawur bazaar or somewhere in Afgfhanistan - had faithfully copied the British original, including serial numbers opn all the pieces. However he apparently only had two number stamps - a '3' and a '6' - so after numbering the pieces, each with a different combination of those two digits [363, 663, 366 etc] he had stamped litlle decorative designs into the stock using the numbers as well.

Peter

[peter monahan]

Peter , do you belong to a black powder club, or, own one to fire privately?

Mervyn

I re-enact the War of 1812-14 -Britain & Canada vs the US - a minor offshoot of the Napoleonic conflicts in Europe. I regularly fire a modern repro. of a Bess with powder only and have shot with ball a few times. Not something I'd try with a period weapon! I love my clumsy little fingers right where they are.

Helen

You mention a 'repeated pattern' on the butt stock. This may be a clue as to where the piece was made. A friend once owned a 'hill made' copy of a Martini-Henry carbine, made in Peshawar bazaar or up in the Khyber country. Every part was numbered but no two numbers the same - 366, 363, 663, 666, etc - as the maker apparently only had two number stamps. Then, for the look of the thing or to add to the magic, he had stamped circular and floral patterns on the wood work, using the '3' stamp repeatedly. So, the 'wall gun' could be a local (ie Asian) copy too. more photos eagerly awaited.

Peter

Edited June 13, 2009 by peter monahan

[helen]

More detailed photos.

I may have made a mistake in my previous assertions that the mark was repeated on the barrel. In fact, the barrel has not markings at all, just the lock plate, butt plate and other attachments (screws, etc).

The muzzle mouth measures 3.2 cm (1 & 1/4 inch) in total (including edges of barrel), whilst the actual hole (bore size) is 2cm (7/8 inch).

The gun weighs 10.6 kg (just over 23 lbs).

Helen

Edited June 19, 2009 by helen

[helen]

[helen]

[helen]

[Mervyn Mitton]

Helen - nice to have the extra photos. What does surprise me is that the barrel is rifled - wouldn't have thought it necessary on a wall gun ? Marks do look Turkish and that looks like an Arabic numeral - shot size - armoury number ?? The plot thickens !!!!

[helen]

I know, that confused me a bit too! Although I've seen mention of a French rifled wall-gun, issued in 1840 (see H. Coburn, United Service Magazine, 1852, p.420). It may altogether may be some sort of hybrid, or at least, an adapted or 'mongrel' weapon. As far I can see there are no more numbers to be seen on it, so perhaps the mystery may never be fully solved!

Edited June 22, 2009 by helen