Turkey Another Turkish Star

[Tim B]

Okay, let's try this one again...hopefully with better results this time.

After returning the last TWM, I was given an opportunity by the dealer to get a refund or, behind door number 2...

Please let me know what you think.

Tim

[Tim B]

The dimensions are as follows:

Weight: 22.8 grams

Width of the star tips: 55.85 mm (Keep in mind this one is really vaulted)

Thickness of the Star arms are 1.8 - 1.9 mm thick

I measured the hinge at the bottom of the base (widest part): 10.84 mm

The crescent measured just under the star arms: 28.72 mm wide.

[Tim B]

This one is of 7-rivet construction.

[Tim B]

Here's a PIC of the catch and hinge style. You can also get a feel for the vault.

Some items I note:

- The catch, hinge and pin are of considerably lighter colored metal compared to the base metal of the star and crescent. Almost has an aluminum look to it, including the hinge pin. I would even say the rivets and thus the front attachments appear to be made of this material as well. Not sure what to think of the patina then.

- There are signs of this lighter color in the recesses of the base metal noted mainly around the hinge area. I understand this is more common on the later produced pieces (30's era) and not so much on the earlier ones, but with so many rivets, I am confused on a possible manufacturing timeline.

- The rivet holes are rather rough around the edges.

[Tim B]

Another shot of the side showing the extreme vault. Has a really nice look to it vaulted like this! I tried but could not capture the edge striations in this PIC, but there are very fine uniform lines along the edges.

[Tim B]

Here's a closeup of the tugrha and surrounding area. Note the holes; Is it possible that this might be another later example made by manufacturer AWS? With this style pin on the reverse, I would be thinking post WW1, perhaps mid-late 30's or even early 40's.

Also note the diamond shape base design under the red enamel. This appears pretty uniform and symmetrical throughout. One question I have on the enamel is there appears to be small bubbles in the enamel, some very miniscule and a few larger ones here and there. These are not visible to the naked eye (not mine anymore anyways), but are noticable under a 10X loop. Is this to be expected? My BB&Co. does not have these. I also see a couple of pin marks in the enamel near the right side of the center.

Last note; you can see the holes where the center attachments were riveted. Appears these holes were drilled out. Top of the tugrha and under the date are most notable in this PIC.

[Tim B]

Okay, I'll stop for now. I do have more PICS and of course more questions, but want to hold off until I hear from some of the more knowledgeable TWM collectors here. I will also be posting this one over at WAF (Imperial) in case someone sees it over there. I'll link them later.

Thanks for any help. I like this one, but there are things that I need to have answered.

Cheers!

Tim

Edited March 5, 2009 by Tim B

[Gordon Williamson]

Here is a direct comparison with my 9-rivet AWS. Similar but not the same. A few very minor differences. The AWS does have a similar "diamond" pattern under the enamel though.

[Gordon Williamson]

Reverse comparison. Similar set up. Apart from the obvious different number of rivets and wider pin.

[Tim B]

Hi Gordon!

Thanks for responding, hoped there would have been more comments by now, but that's the way it goes I guess.

This one does have a better "feel" to it compared to the last one. Similar to earlier made German pieces, this one seems to hold the ambient temperature when touching it; meaning it's cold to the touch at first, then seems to hold any heat longer than more modern metals. Not sure if anyone else ever noticed that aspect or not.

Overall, I like this one. I guess if there were things that make me question it, it would be these:

- The minute bubbles in the enamel.

- The appearance of the holes from the front side, though to the unaided eye they are virtually unnoticeable.

- The wide pin, but more so, the color of the pin/hinge/catch in relation to the rest of the backside.

- The rivets and holes are kind of rough looking; expected a more finished look I guess, but again I'm scrutinizing under a loop and I have to take that into perspective.

This may all be okay, depending on the maker and timeline, I just do not know for certain.

Anyone else?

[Tim B]

As a side note; Here's another one that was recently listed on ebay and went unsold. It started with a high price and the seller was in Croatia, so that may have been why it didn't sell.

Very similar IMO, though the cutouts are not as many as the one I got and the pin is slightly different. I do like the look of this one, in some ways more than mine. The brass coming through and the stronger silver finsh on the star arms, plus the taper to the pin tell me this one is original. Interestingly, the seller told me this piece only has 4 rivets.

I don't know.

Tim

[Gordon Williamson]

Actually, I like the loook of both of these, yours and this one from EBay. I'm sure like everything else, these are being faked, but I would be astonished if multiple types of fakes of these were being made to this level of quality.

[Ulsterman]

Yeah- I saw that one on eBay. I thought it was because the price was too high.

My multi-rivets (2) are all in the vault, but I'll pull them and compare tomorrow.

My only really big query was the unusual diamond/strawberry seed pattern. The pits seem "larger" somehow, than others I have looked at.

I also wondered about the bubbling in the enamel (which I can not see). I think that means it was hot enamel and it cooled quickly-which is a very good sign, as "cold enamel" (essentially high grade nail polish) seems to be what is used by most modern fakers.

It is cheaper and less probe to errors and requires less technical skill to apply.

Have you taken it to a jeweler to see what the base metal might be?

It looks like a silver alloy of some sort.

Personally, going by the pics I would keep it. It looks a nicer piece.

It has been very quiet here over the past few weeks.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Ulsterman

[Tim B]

Hi, thanks for looking. Weights and dimensions are above in post #2.

This is good news for me on the enamel bubbling, something I did not know but will apply that knowledge in the future!

Tim

[Tim B]

Just for comparison info, here are the dimensions and weights of the three that I have handled:

BB&Co. // This unknown piece // The last one that was believed fake

Weight: 28.1 grams // 22.8 grams // 17.0 grams

Width star tips: 57.4 mm // 55.85 mm // 55.4 mm

Thickness star arms: 2 mm // 1.8 - 1.9 mm // didn't measure

Crescent width: 30.0 mm // 28.72 mm // didn't measure

Edited March 6, 2009 by Tim B

[Tim B]

As promised, here's a link to the concurrent running thread at WAF: http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=342546

There are some additional member comments there. Thanks for all the looks and help so far guys!

Tim

[Guest Rick Research]

Links to that website, aside from other issues Old Timers are well aware of and need not be endlessly repeated, do not work for anyone who does not PAY to view scans.

As far as I can tell, there were virtually as many manufacturers of this award in Germany as there were recipients.

Aside form the ubiquitous BB&Cos which make up at least 9 out of 10 we find, that other 1 in 10 ALL seem to be different. Lovely to look at--reallizing that for a German these are little more than an Ottoman Hindenburg Cross and pretty-to-look-at but INSIGNIFICANT as "decorations" for most wearers--but prices are literally insane. I long long ago gave up what would have been a pleasing sub-collection of all types possible because it makes absolutely no sense to pay such prices for what amounts to a sparklin' campaign medal, in most cases made after the war. :cheers:

[Tim B]

Okay Rick, I already know your views of that "other" site; the link is there for those that might be interested in the star variation and different points of view, that's all.

I agree, prices on EVERYTHING are insane these days, actually have been for about the last five years in my opinion, but if you want to collect and didn't have an extensive collection built up from the 70's, you're pretty much screwed or at the whims of the selling prices these days. You do what you got to do to continue or get out.

I know you thoughts on the award in general and it's lowly position in the pecking order of higher awards, but when EK1's are over $300. and cased ones are hitting $600-$700 now, when I can get one of these for under $200. I'll take it!

All the best and thanks for looking.

Tim

[Tim B]

Yeah- I saw that one on eBay. I thought it was because the price was too high.

I see the seller relisted it on ebay with a slightly reduced price.

Tim