Help identify period and unit of German/Prussian uniforms

[fackerman64]

Amongst some of the photographs I have inherited from my recently deceased grandfather was the one below. I need help identifying the period, the type of unit and possibly the ranks of these troops. My grandfather and his family came from Frankfurt a/M in Hessen, Germany. Any help would be appreciated.

[The Prussian]

Helle Frank!

Can you recognize anything upon the shoulder straps? The brandenburg cuffs stand for infantry or foot artillery. Because of they wear only one cocarde, the photo must have been taken before 1897. Maybe foot-artillery-regiment n?3 from Mainz??

[fackerman64]

Hallo der Preu?e,

Wie geht's, wie steht's? Thank you for your input. It's very interesting that you mentioned the Fussartilery unit because among the heirlooms I inherited, I found the following medal. This may be related to the photo in the previous post.

This is the front of the medal. The border inscription says "Fussart. Regiment General-Feldzeugmeister (Brandenburg) Nr. 3" while the inscription on the banner states, "Hie Guet Brandenburg Alle Wege". It looks like some sort of commemorative/Jubileums medal.

[fackerman64]

Here is the back of the medal. It states "50 Jahrfeier" and on the bottom the dates 1864 to 1914. The letters below the crown appear to be GFZ (General-Feldzeugmeister?). I don't really know if this medal has anything to do with the photo but it is very coincidental.

?brigens, ich war von 1985 bis 1987 in Rheinberg (neben Kamp-Lintfort und in der N?he von B?derich-Wesel) stationiert. Ich war bei den "Bongos" in einem Signal-Einheit (Fernmeldetechnik mit der US Armee). Dort habe ich meiner Frau kennen gelernt. Sie wurde in Duisburg geboren und kommt aus Moers. Ich wurde in Frankfurt a/M geboren. Wir sind ?fter nach Essen gefahren und kennen uns da etwas um.

The medal is in somewhat bad shape. It looks to be made of tin and was annodized and lacquered. The lacquer is comming off or peeling in places. Sorry for the image quality.

Freundlichem Gru? aus Amerika

[The Prussian]

Hello Frank!

That is very interesting, that you are german born and you met your wife in my area! Since now, I?ve never heard, that US troops were in Rheinberg! I thought we had only UKs... But you wrote, it was 25 years ago. Me, I?ve spend my time in the army from 1987-1091 (armoured infantry near Bremen and lorry-driver in Unna). In Bremen (Schwanewede) our american "partner-unit" was the 66th.Armor Regiment "Semper in Hostes"

Back to your photo and the medal. The medal is a very nice piece! And because it?s from the foot-artillery-regiment 3, I think the guys on the photo belonged to the same unit. Formed in 1864 (june, 16th) it?s called "brandenburgisch", because, I think, they were set up somewhere in Brandenburg, and came later to Mainz. Unfortunately I don?t have any more infos about that unit. It?s strange that your grandfather owned that medal, because it is from 1914 and the photo was taken defiantly before 1897. Did he have forefathers in the same regiment?

I hope, you understand my english. I could answer in german (of course...), but it would be unfriendly to the other gentlemen, who don?t speak german. If you have any questions about german uniforms until 1933 or their histories of formations, don?t be shy to ask me.

I enclosed a nice photo: Me in 1987, wearing an american Kevlar-helmet and an M-16 (after occupying a village near Bremen during a manoeuvre - we together with our partner-regiment)) It would be interesting to know, what people in 100 years would say, if they like to recognize, what unit that was...

Best regards from the "Ruhrpott"

Andreas

[fackerman64]

Hallo Andreas,

Du siehst ja sehr gef?hrlich aus! What's with the M-16? What happened to your HK Gewehr-3? Anyway... Rheinberg, Germany was a large supply depot for most of Nordrhein-Westfalen during the REFORGER exercises at the time. I was with the 532nd Signal Co. (HQ'd in Giessen) under the 39th Signal Bn. and the 2nd Signal Bgde (out of Bremerhaven).

My detachment was assigned to provide digital communications for the Rheinberg Military Community. The entire post or Kasserne was housed in an old carpet factory (das Reichel Geb?ude). We supported the 54th Area Support Group, the 7th Support Command as well as the 527th CEBN (Combat Equipment Battalion in M?nchengladbach). Our company had other detachments in Wesel, Haminkeln, Gelsenkirchen, Geilenkirchen (a huge NATO airbase with AWACS) and D?ren. We all came under NORTHAG (Northern Army Group) and worked with the Tommie's BOAR (British Army Of the Rhein). I lived in downtown Rheinberg across the street from the bookstore owned by Claudia Schiffer's family (before she became a super-model) and just up the street from the Underberg Mansion. Those were the days!! Your English by the way, is as good as my German.

Back to the subject of the photo and medals. My grandfather kept many of the medals, photographs and postcards passed onto him from his ancestors. I've been trying to sort things out between the awards and photos, trying to assign the right award to the right person and the person to a unit. I am wondering right now, if this Fussartillery unit may have taken part in the Battle of K?niggratz of 1866 based on the dates and the bouteniere I have (see bouteniere post under Imperial German Awards).

In my research, I've found some useful sites such as www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de and www.feldgrau.com for relatives that fought in WWII. I have yet to find something similar for German imperial forces though. Any suggestions? Is there some department of records in Germany that would also cover the Gliederung of the imperial forces? I'm thinking I may have to check the records of the individual L?nder (i.e. the Grand Duchy of Hessen). What is really neat about all of this is that when I get one question answered, it raises 10 more. It's like solving a big jigsaw puzzle. Were you able to tell the rank of the soldiers in the photo (officers or enlisted)?

Edited March 25, 2009 by fackerman64

[fackerman64]

Here's a photo of me during a Field Training Exercise (FTX) at Ft. Lewis, Washington. As you can see, I'm also wearing my Army-issued birth-control or rape-prevention glasses. Ft. Lewis was one of the most beautiful posts I've ever served at. It was almost like being in the Schwarzwald. Every morning when getting out of our tents, we woke up to a view of Mount Rainiere. You had to watch out for the harvester ants though, they were as big as VW's (think of the RAMMSTEIN video for "Links..2..3..4").

Bis sp?ter,

[The Prussian]

Hi Frank!

Well, I swapped my G3 with the M16 of a GI just for that photo. I didn?t want to own that, because we shot with both, but I prefered our G3...

Rheinberg is a nice town. But I think, Underberg is more interesting than Claudia (since she married Seal...)

I looked at the Fu?artillerie. It?s strange. In the book "Ruhmeshalle", is written, that regiment fought in july, 12th 1866, but I couldn?t find that unit in the ordre of battle. Unfortunataley I only have the listing of the Korps and I think, Fu?artillerie belonged to the HQ. But I can ask a friend of mine, he owns the complete recordings of the gerneral staff of 1866.

Well, we have some interesting forums in germany, like this: http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbulletin/index.php

But I don?t know any places to find relatives. The problem is, a lot of documents were destroyed in 1945. If you are looking for some informations about uniforms or histories of formations, let me know.

BTW, my grandpa served with the "Clevesches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.43" from Wesel. He was in France in 1917 and 1918. The picture shows him sitting on the chair (wearing the EKII). I also have his Milit?rpa? and the Regimental history. In the Pa? stands, he was wounded by gas sept.28th 1918 near St.Souplet. Unfortunately I couldn?t meet him, he died, when I was 1 year old in 1968.

Well, off to work with me, mate, it?s late. If you have the skype-messenger, I am "ruhrpottpreusse"

Cheers, Andy

[The Prussian]

Hi Frank!

Well, I swapped my G3 with the M16 of a GI just for that photo. I didn?t want to own that, because we shot with both, but I prefered our G3...

Rheinberg is a nice town. But I think, Underberg is more interesting than Claudia (since she married Seal...)

I looked at the Fu?artillerie. It?s strange. In the book "Ruhmeshalle", is written, that regiment fought in july, 12th 1866, but I couldn?t find that unit in the ordre of battle. Unfortunataley I only have the listing of the Korps and I think, Fu?artillerie belonged to the HQ. But I can ask a friend of mine, he owns the complete recordings of the gerneral staff of 1866.

Well, we have some interesting forums in germany, like this: http://feldgrau.pytalhost.com/vbulletin/index.php

But I don?t know any places to find relatives. The problem is, a lot of documents were destroyed in 1945. If you are looking for some informations about uniforms or histories of formations, let me know.

BTW, my grandpa served with the "Clevesches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr.43" from Wesel. He was in France in 1917 and 1918. The picture shows him sitting on the chair (wearing the EKII). I also have his Milit?rpa? and the Regimental history. In the Pa? stands, he was wounded by gas sept.28th 1918 near St.Souplet. Unfortunately I couldn?t meet him, he died, when I was 1 year old in 1968.

Well, off to work with me, mate, it?s late. If you have the skype-messenger, I am "ruhrpottpreusse"

Cheers, Andy

[fackerman64]

I must say I preferred the G-3 as well when I qualified with it in Haminkeln. You could drag it through the mud and it would still shoot. I also preferred the Walther P-1 to the Baretta M-9, it handled very well and was like pointing your finger to shoot.

Your grandfather looked very young in that photo. He looks like he couldn't be more than 16 or 17 years old, and to have won the EKII...wow! Did he actually come from or live in Cleve (or is it Kleve)? Wesel seems to have always been a major St?tzpunk or marshalling area (major rail network and on the Rhine River). As you probably know, it was literally obliterated by bombs at the end of WWII and was where the Brits under Montgommery crossed the Rhine. I've even seen photos of Churchill visiting the wreckage of the Weseler Bridge afterwards. To this day, you can still see the ruins of the original bridge when entering Wesel from B?derich.

My grandfather was only 8 years old when his two older brothers, Wilhelm and Heinrich went to fight in WWI. My grand-uncle Wilhelm fought in Russia with the 48th Reserve Division. Here he is in Berlin before being deployed....

...and at the Russian front on the far left.

[The Prussian]

Ah, yes, the first photo seems to me, that the covered helmet could have a ball for artillery under the cover???

To my grandpa. When the photo was taken, he was 19. He didn?t live in Cleve. My entire family comes from Essen. The regiment was called "Clevesches", but they stood in Wesel. Cleve or Kleve is the same. In the imperial age a lot of cities were spelled with a C like C?ln or Coblenz and now we use the K.

I askes a friend of mine about the Fu?artillery 3. He has the Rangliste (whats the english word for it) from 1866. There were two regiments with the 3. The Artillery-Regiment Nr.2 (stood in several toens in Brandenburg) and the Festungsartillery Regiment Nr.3 from Mainz. In my ols Rangliste from 1878 I found only a field and a footartillery regiment Nr.3. So I think, the Festungsartillery were named in Fu?artillerie between 1866 and 1878. I enclosed the page from the Festungsartillery. Do you have skype-messenger?

[fackerman64]

Here is Wilhelm Zipp again during WWII when he served with the 15th Infantry Division, Regiment 106. I got to meet him when I was only 6 years old before he died.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2009/post-6247-1237990062.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2009/post-6247-1237990100.jpg

Edited March 25, 2009 by fackerman64

[fackerman64]

My other grand-uncle Heinrich Zipp, whom I never met served with the 3. Garde-Feld-Artl-Regt. out of Berlin during WWI. I only have a few postcards from him to my grandfather like this one...

That's very interesting about the naming convention of the Cities. I always wondered by mistake that they were referring to two different Cities.

The picture of my uncle Wilhelm in Pickelhaube is one with a pointy spike. He was in the infantry. My uncle Heinrich was the cannon-cocker.

The list you refer to in English would be called a ranks list or muster sheet, I believe.

I'm sorry but I don't have or am signed onto skype messenger. What is it and how does one apply?

You may be able to just send me an Email at frank_seal_master@yahoo.com.

I only recently started to find out more about my relatives that served in Germany's armed forces. It's really ironic that I joined the U.S. Army to serve in Germany myself as an Ami, when over 60 years ago America and Germany were mortal enemies. In a way, my family history has come full circle. It's amazing how former enemies can become such good allies.

Seeing that list has gotten me all jazzed-up. I can't wait to see a better copy. Thanks guys.

[The Prussian]

Skype is free messenger, we could chat, talk (for free!) and send datas very quickly. A lot of people in the german forum use skype.: http://www.skype.com/allfeatures/callphone...pid%253D1413356

The problem of the copy are the allowed 70K.. I try to send you a better copy. My buddy has a lot of the brank lists. Me, I?ve got the 1878, 1913, 1914, 1920 and the list of honour

Edited March 25, 2009 by The Prussian

[The Prussian]

Now it?s clear. The Jany says, that in 1874 the Feldartillerie and the "now so called Fu?artillerie" (former Festungsartillerie) was devided.

Curt Jany: Geschichte der Preu?ischen Armee IV