France Legion of Honor-Officer

[Tim B]

Hi Bison!

Yes, I could see where it might be close to the 2nd example you posted above. One thing that holds me back though, is the "X" (crossed billard cues) dip below the bottom of the letter "A" on your examples--correctly for Chobillon marks. On my piece, this "X" does not appear to dip below the "A". So, is it an incomplete mark or something different? Or, were there Chobillon marks that did not have this "X" dip below the "A"'s?

I know it's not the mark for André Aucoc with the rooster and double-A mark as shown below. However, could it be the later mark for "Aucoc (& Cie)" that utilized a double-A with lance if I remember correctly? I don't really know what that mark looks like to compare here, so would like to positively eliminate that possibilty first before concluding it's Chobillon.

Learning more as usual, and very happy for the opinions and assistance here! Many thanks again!

Tim

[Bison]

Hi Tim,

I am not sure we are speaking about the right "AUCOC" jeweller.

I do not know André AUCOC as medals and orders maker. As far as I am concerned, I just know Louis AUCOC and Georges AUCOC who had really made a lot of Légion d'honneur.

Here below is a model from Georges Aucoc, son of Louis Aucoc, Jeweller, 9 rue du quatre Septembre, Paris

The Aucoc's mark is

<G

[a walking wolf]

A>

(sorry, but on this Légion d'honneur, half of the mark is missing)

And another mark of Louis & Georges Aucoc (probably during the period the father was still alive) was this one where you can see the "walking wolf":

[Bison]

Hello again

And to be complete, here is a typical "Aucoc" model in solid gold:

[Bison]

Reverse:

[Bison]

With the head of eagle mark for gold:

And a very thick rosette on the ribbon, which is a characteristic of Aucoc.

Regards

Bison

[Tim B]

Hi Bison,

Is there a master list of the makers that did produce the Legion of Honor, as well as other ODM's, so I may eliminate these other makers from my future searches? Also, is there a complete list or reference that shows these marks anywhere?

I have other LoH pieces and cannot figure the marks on them either. So tiny and often incompletely stamped; so frustrating.

Thanks again,

Tim

[Tim B]

Not to go too far off the Officer's version here; My curiosity got the best of me tonight and I had to revist my other LoH awards. After looping two Knights Class, I thought I would take another shot and see if I might get some information on the marks here.

First one carries no marks where I normally would expect to see them. The area under the star where the oak and laurel leaves meet shows no marks but, on the reverse, the top arm suspension has two similar hallmarks on each side. If seahorse's weren't on gold items, I would have ventured a guess that is what they looked like. Any thoughts what they may be and any clue on possible maker here?

Tim

[Tim B]

Another shot with slightly different light angles.

[Tim B]

The second one is a little trickier, if I can be bold and say that!

This one has the typical placement of the diamond with maker's mark on the top left front suspension and a mark of something (silver content?) on the reverse bottom.

I am not sure what I am looking at here in the diamond. Depending on the light angles, it can play on the eyes and I will just keep quiet for now. Any help?

Tim

[Tim B]

Same mark; different angle and lighting.

[Tim B]

Here's the reverse mark. I thought it might have been a different version of the boar, then the hare, then...

Tim

[Tim B]

Almost looks like a bird head of some sort, doesn't it?

[Bison]

Hi Tim,

Picture 1: This is the official mark of 'la Monnaie de Paris', the official French manufacturer for coins and medals.

Picture 2 and 3: It is George AUCOC without any doubt. You can see easily the famous "walking wolf".

Pictures 4 & 5: It is a mark of guarantee for silver and gold (double head of hoar and eagle). When the medal is too small to stamp separately gold and silver, this mark is to be used.

Unfortunately there are no 'official' list of manufacturers...

Amongst the most well known, we can find (for the Third Republic):

La Monnaie de Paris (obviously)

Arthus-Bertrand

Albert Désiré Marie

Georges or Louis Aucoc

Adrien Chobillon

Bacqueville

Marius or Paul Delande

Boullanger

... and many others, I shall check my notes this evening.

Regards

Bison

[Bison]

Hello again

Add to the list above:

'Edmond Lemaître', 'Gaston Lemaître' and 'Lemaître Fils'

'A. René', 'A Marie Stuart'

'Ouizille et Lemoine'

... and probably many others...

Regards

Bison

[Tim B]

Many thanks Bison!!

It's collectors like you and Hendrik that have the knowledge and take the time out of your day to help answer these type questions and make the hobby that much more enjoyable for guys like me.

Okay, I never considered turning the medal on it's side and thinking about the Monnaise de Paris Cornucopia mark but, I can see it now. Never expected it I guess, not sure why not, as I have the stamp on several of my other lessor French medals.

Thank you!

Tim

Edited June 2, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Looking at the PIC I posted in post # 34; I would never have guessed it was a walking Wolf.

I could see a walking turkey or chicken, but then in the next photos, thought it looked more like an "O" and possible "A" divided by ??

Glad I kept my mouth shut and ideas to myself!

By chance, do you have any PIC's of this "walking wolf" to compare or use as a future guide?

On the reverse combination boar/eagle head mark; I assume this is what I am looking at (below)? I could see traits of both and was unaware this combination mark even existed, that's why I went for the hare or (actually thought it might be a rabid goat)!!

Thanks again my friend!

Tim

Edited June 2, 2010 by Tim B

[Bison]

Thank you!

The pleasure is mine in sharing knowledge about our hobby.

Let me tell you another thing that few collectors know, even in France.

In the cornucopia, if you watch it very carefully, you will see a letter. In your case there is a microscopic 'A' for 'ARGENT' = Silver.

At the beginning you will burn your eyes to catch this detail, but with a little training you will find it easily.

On other medals you could find a 'O' for 'Or' = Gold. Therefore one should have a tremendous magnifier for examining this kind of detail... but so important at the end!

The reason is that the hallmark of la Monnaie de Paris is both an official guarantee and a maker's one. That is why you will never find a cornucopia and a head of hoar or eagle (or both) on the same piece. These two last marks of guarantee are exclusively dedicated to private jewellers. In fact they are the evidence they have paid the taxes!

However, a part of the medal could be made by a private contractor for la Monnaie. In this case one part is privately marked, and the other part is marked by La Monnaie. For example, it is the case for the 1st type of the 'Médaille Coloniale' which coin was punched with a cornucopia, and the beliere (I don't know if it is the right english word, but it is in French) was privately punched with 2 marks, a head of hoar (the hallmark) and a diamond with the symbols of the jeweller.

Moreover, when all the parts are made and assembled by La Monnaie, there are two cornucopias. This is the case for your Légion d'honneur here.

Yours

Bison

Edited June 3, 2010 by Bison

[Tim B]

Bison,

Thank you again! I have learned so much information in just the last couple of posts!

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to start a "pinned" thread just on maker's marks so everyone could share their items and perhaps learn more on these markings as well?

Best,

Tim

[Bison]

No it is a secret, it will not come out of the Net.

The best, too

Bison

[Tim B]

:P Ahh, I see the French are trying to have their way with me here!

Perhaps tomorrow I will try to start a thread on maker's marks then. We can add to it as time goes on and perhaps more will add their pieces as well. Hopefully some level of database can be made.

Many thanks again my friend!

Tim

[Bison]

I fully support this thread, I far as I could.

However it is a very very challenging topic, where nothing is very clear, even for so-called experts.

Everything which could bring a light will be a step forward for all serious collector.

We have started to do that in France, and we are a few to really pay effort in this.

Many thanks also, for your tremendous pics and overall for your interest of this (and your open mind in that issue).

Sincerely

Bison

[Tim B]

Hello Bison,

No problem, always happy to add anything I can to the collecting community and it will be a nice change to show small details without worrying that the fakers are watching and learning like in the German areas.

Just received a very nice luxury Knights Class LoH but, won't take this thread off track further here. I would like to add some more close-ups of the maker's marks on the Officer LoH I had previously posted on page 1 (posts 8-11). Now that I am a little better at looking for them and photographing them; still need to learn who is who though.

So...here's the marks on that Officer LoH. First up, another boar and makes sense as even the center does not retain the gold color.

Tim

[Tim B]

The diamond mark appears to have the letter "L" and ?; a bag a money or a vase?; and what appears to be the letters "I N S". Another one I have no clue on, and can't find any reference showing something similar.

Tim

Edited June 5, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

A little closer

Tim

[Bison]

Hi Tim

This mark, without any doubt, is "Lemaître - Fils" ans was used around 1922 - 1937.

'Lemaître' is an old jeweller company, which started circa 1836, but with different succesive marks.

Yours