saschaw Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 (edited) I'd like to show some ribbon bars that are making me crazy. I'm not sure if any might be traceable, as I'm not even sure at the moment what the awards are. Missing names don't drive me crazy - not to know what awards are represented does!I'm starting with a home made, wide ribboned and likely war time Bavarian/Baden NCO's bar with Bavarian MVK 2nd class with swords, a plain blue ribbon, Baden long service award, Bavarian long service award and Baden war merit cross. Two state's awards and matching two states long service award is odd, but oddest is the plain blue one. I thougt it is most likely a Prussian crown order medal - but then realized the "Kreuz f?r Verdienste um das Brieftaubenwesen" has the same ribbon. Might it be for the pidgeon award... ?! And exist award numbers, even a list for it? #1: Edited May 9, 2009 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 "Missing names don't drive me crazy" Research gnome heresy!!!!! Nothing can be worse than a ribbon that is only one color. Some things we cannot ever know from a ribbon bar--only a medal bar. That Baden/Bavarian long service combination would bug me too-- because he has NEITHER the Baden 1902 jubilee NOR the Bavarian 1905/11 one--- so when was he in their armies? ONE of those must surely be Reserve-Landwehr.Oh well. Next? :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 10, 2009 Author Share Posted May 10, 2009 (edited) Hmm, pity... thought you might have a genius' idea. That Baden/Bavarian long service combination would bug me too-- because he has NEITHER the Baden 1902 jubilee NOR the Bavarian 1905/11 one--- so when was he in their armies? ONE of those must surely be Reserve-Landwehr.He was an EM/NCO, not an officer. At least the Baden 1902 was not given to anyone at the military, but to literally any officer - and only to older NCOs. He was to young for that. Oh well. Next? How about that one? The Z?hringer is clear, I think the Prussian ribbon is not a RAO4 - but rather a Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen. That bar looks pretty much like e.g. a Zahlmeister to me. How about Lapp? Found both awards for him, he was in Breslau ("near" Berlin), and I guess he might have had all other stuff on the bar...#2: Edited May 10, 2009 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, No, I'd say that is a literally perfect Major's bar. RAO4 wandering around in Third Reich wearer-uncertain precedence, and either a BZ3aX. Probably not a BZ3aX with no oakleaves device (nobody seems to have carried that in stock very much, so NOT having an "a" device doesn't mean it's NOT an "a" class) because then he'd have been too old to still be in the civil service in 1938. Probably a Lucky Captain with pre-war RAO4, Major during the war, and might have gone out as a char. OTL aD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Thanks Rick, may be a Major as well. But is there anything that speaks against e.g. a Oberzahlmeister, one as mentioned Lapp? "Actually", a officer's XXV should be somewhat ahead to that position. Actually... Probably not a BZ3aX with no oakleaves device (nobody seems to have carried that in stock very much, so NOT having an "a" device doesn't mean it's NOT an "a" class) because then he'd have been too old to still be in the civil service in 1938. Probably a Lucky Captain with pre-war RAO4, Major during the war, and might have gone out as a char. OTL aD.One of us did get the devices wrong. Possibly I'm missreading you... BZ3aX has exactely the same device as 3bX has and 3aXE has the same as 3bXE has - indistinguishable without the context. And here, the context is inconclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 No, you misunderstood me. Very often NO oakleaves device is found. BZ3bX, BZ3bXE, BZ3aX, BZ3aXE... the ONLY device the ribbon bar makers had on hand was gold "X" because nobody seems to have bothered with the "XE" device. So there is no way to be sure from a RIBBON BAR what exact class of Z?hringen is on there. Usually we have to guess from the other awards which one it was.I'd say from the RAO4 and XXV and 1897 above that the Xs actually DO represent a BZ3aX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 Ah, okay. Not my day I guess. You're absolutely right, those special devices were often not in stock. I'd say from the RAO4 and XXV and 1897 above that the Xs actually DO represent a BZ3aX.I do know a medal bar with XXV, 1897, AEZ - and BZ3bX. A weird ex-NCO's with nothing but the AEZ that signalizes this... well, and his Leutnant-level BZ3bX with 25+ years in service... the ONLY device the ribbon bar makers had on hand was gold "X" because nobody seems to have bothered with the "XE" device.Do you know why? There were some fools mounting XE but did only have X! Have no pictures handy but I know a medal bar/ribbon bar set with wrong device... fools! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) Two bars with questions don't make a question thread, and while I posted my three HOH3X/BZ3*X/OK2 in the HOH3X thread, I have to concur here with something else. I did think about it but didn't become any wiser from. I think that's one of the oddest I've ever seen - or is it me just blind?! Black/white ribbon in #1 should be an EK2 1914, #2 has to be L?beck Hanseaten cross, #3 is a white/black ribbon, #4 a blue long service ribbon and #5 looks like OK2 for non-combattants or W?rttemberg long service award. Preu?e or W?rttemberger... ?If it were a W?rttemberger's bar I'd suppose #3 to be a pre-war Prussian KrVM - but there is nothing else from W?rttemberg which makes me wonder what the last ribbon is, especially as #4 is yet an long service award... Any ideas?! :catjava: Edited May 23, 2009 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Some things can only be answered from medal bars. Poor old Oldenburg with its ugly painted black Friedrich August Crosses often were dumped at the end of any bar, regardless of regulations, so it could be that, from the L?beck Cross. But then as you say, what are the TWO "Iron Cross" ribbons for, both combatant and non-combatant-- with everything ELSE here being WW1 period? I can't think of anything that would have resulted in BOTH during the war.BTW, I have still no luck with THIS nightmare group-- my WORST:He has got to be "lost" in those wretched No First Names Prussians listed separately as "Hauptmann M?ller" or "Schmidt" and we just haven't been able to COMBINE him with lack of data between the MANY awards. Notice that between the 3rd and 4th ribbon bars, a W?rttemberg long service ribbon has been used as "close enough nobody will notice" for a Turkish Gold Liakat Medal with Sabers Bar. If there weren't BOTH in this set-- and there is another with the Turkish ribbon and device right side up Out There among we GMIC'ers... that sure would throw off identifications with a FALSE clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Hmm yes, I remember your nightmare group... and some else... with BZ3*XE and a Lippe order... but the day will come. If you're right and it is an OK2... might my bar be with a KO4w to a desktop hero, but in enemy's area (and so with black ribboned EK2). I think that makes most sense as he indeed looks very Prussian. Cannot be a "Foreigner" with pre war KrVMw. And does not look like a colonial award with missing X devices. Hmm... a stupid bar, anyway. :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Any ideas about this one? I assume a Prussian general with all Prussian stuff no more on the bar, while wearing "foreign" stuff as "Kleindekorationen". I cannot find him like this, but anything else does not make sense... it might well be a war time bar, so he could have ended with some more others... :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Hmmmm. Another mystery! I wonder if the Bavarian devices are the wrong color, and should really be a 4 not a 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Hi Rick,many questions ???? - the back is blue, but nothing is like it seems... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Hi Rick,where are your results???? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I don't find him. Got the medal bar? I hate plain swords on "Iron Cross" ribbon with no colonial campaign medal. Too many things it could be. VERY odd crown to Red Eagle Order ribbon, with no red enamel in it.Unless all awards are known for a Reichswehr officer, there are only three ribbons here that CAN be searched-- Prussian???mitX, Red Eagle 4 w/Crown, and the BMVO3X--whcih Roth's work is not complete for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WNickel Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Hi Rick,sorry, you can't find him and I too....It's the ribbon bar of Oberst zD Rostock and I got it from his family.You are right with the BMVO 3 x and later he got the PRAO 3 mSchl+x silver-gilt but there I haven't rolls until today.... :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 Great one, Werner, with a lovely RAO-Duo... to imagine... Hmmmm. Another mystery! I wonder if the Bavarian devices are the wrong color, and should really be a 4 not a 3?I cannot imagine a Prussian officer with BMV4XKr and all that other stuff but not one single Prussian order. Do you? Must in my honest opinion be some "bigger" non-Prussian stuff with the big Prussians worn in full size... cannot find someone either, but can imagnie this much more. :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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