France Order of precedence - Help!

[Hugh]

I'm reworking my display of French ODM, and am struggling with precedence. I have the list of the Grande Chancellerie de la Legion d'Honneur, but it doesn't include all the medals I have. Perhaps some of them are unofficial? I'm posting a photo of my tentative best-guess arrangement, and would be very grateful for corrections.

Specifically, I have questions about the placement of the following:

1) Medaille des Evades (First row) - Why is this so high in the precedence?

2) Croix du Merite Militaire, w/rosette (First row, next to Evades) - Is this the correct name? Where can I find more about it? Is this the right placement?

3) Medaille d'Outre-Mer (ex-Medaille Coloniale) (Second row) - Why does this precede Medaille de la Defense Nationale (Or)? Is this really correct?

4) Where should the Wound Medal fit?

5) Order du Merite Combatant (Veteran's Service),Chevalier, 1870-71 (Second row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorised for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in?

6) Medaille Commemorative du Verdun(Third row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorised for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in? (My great-uncle got one back then. He was a machine gunner with the American Army.)

7) Medaille des Engages Volontaires, w/bar EngageVolontaire (Third row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorised for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in?

8) Medaille Internes de la Resistance, Medaille Internes Politiques (Third row) - Where should these fit in?

Is there an accepted length for the ribbons on French medals? As you can see, I've acquired all different lengths over the years.

I'm comfortable reading French, if you can recommend sites with this information.

I also have doubts about a number of the pieces which I bought many years ago from a guy in Mt. Vernon, NY. I'll post them later for authentication (or not!)

Finally, If you see any other problems with this arrangement, I'd be very happy to get your advice. I want it to be correct and appropriately respectful.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hugh

Edited August 21, 2009 by Hugh

[Hendrik]

Hello Hugh,

A complex number of questions and probably not all of them will get an answer ... let's start with an excellent website on French medals : http://www.france-phaleristique.com . In the "Annexes" there's some information on order of precedence and order of wear by the military which may be of use to you.

Among the decorations in your picture, I notice the Vichy Croix de Guerre. As you intend to show the medals in their order of wear, please note that Vichy decorations are banned from being worn ... you may thus want to start a separate Vichy awards display !

Wound medal and Engages Volontaires are, I think, not officially worn.

The bar on your wound medal does not belong there but with a campaign medal, e.g. the WW2 Commemorative Medal or a later campaign medal.

Why does one medal take precedence over another ? In many cases just because that is how the rules have been set out to be ... it's not always logical, isn't it ?

[Hugh]

Thanks for this, Hendrik,

Actually, http://www.france-phaleristique.com was my source for the two excellent precedence lists used for this tentative order. The absence of some of my medals from those lists leads me to wonder about the status of those medals. (But, as we all know, some veterans do wear unofficial medals which are meaningful to them.) I particularly liked M. Champenois comment on the wound medal - "Il existe au moins six modèles de cette médaille non officielle plus ou moins tolérée." (...More or less tolerated) He goes on to mention the appearance of the wound medal in the catalogue of the Monnaie de Paris, source of only official medals, wondering if this is - "...une forme d'officialisation larvée de cette médaille" (a form of creeping officialisation?)

My wound medal with bar was sold to me exactly as shown by Arthus Bertrand in July of 1988. I know that doesn't give it official sanction, but I wonder if it is intended to show a second wound? What's the current usage? (creeping or not!) I remember some excellent posts on this subject in the past, but haven't found them.

The Vichy CdG is a bit of an issue. As it is the only Vichy medal I have (Danger - Magpie at work!), a separate display would be quite limited. I'll struggle with that.

As for Engages Volontaires, I can't find anything about it on the site and would like to know more about it. Can anyone help?

Thanks,

Hugh

Edited August 21, 2009 by Hugh

[TacHel]

Specifically, I have questions about the placement of the following:

1) Médaille des Evadés (First row) - Why is this so high in the precedence?

This medal is actually a war medal, that's why it is so high in the order of precedence. It wasn't only bestowed for escaping a POW camp and regaining a friendly unit. People from Alsace Lorraine forced to join the Wehrmacht who escaped service and joined a resistance movement got this instead of the resistance medal if their acts happened in other occupied territories.

2) Croix du Merite Militaire, w/rosette (First row, next to Evades) - Is this the correct name? Where can I find more about it? Is this the right placement?

It was replaced by the Médaille de la Défense Nationale, I would think right after it.

3) Médaille d'Outre-Mer (ex-Medaille Coloniale) (Second row) - Why does this precede Médaille de la Défense Nationale (Or)? Is this really correct?

The Médaille d'Outre-Mer is a campaign medal. The Médaille de la Défense Nationale is little more than a long service award. Most militaries put campaign medals before service medals, this is the case here.

4) Where should the Wound Medal fit?

The wound medal is not officially recognized, it is only tolerated for wear. The original 1916 law on this subject only authorized a red enamel star to be worn on the ribbon of the campaign medal issued for the action where the wound was received (IE Colonial Medal,Indochina Medal, etc). This law/regulation as yet to be changed. It goes way at the back with the Médaille des Engagés Volontaires.

5) Ordre du Mérite Combatant (Veteran's Service),Chevalier, 1870-71(Second row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorized for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in?

Yes it was but it doesn't exist anymore. It was bestowed between 1953 and 1963 when it was replaced by the Ordre National du Mérite. I figure placing it right after the latter would be close enough.

6) Médaille Commemorative de Verdun (Third row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorised for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in? (My great-uncle got oneback then. He was a machine gunner with the American Army.)

Unofficial,but tolerated for wear. WW1 vets used to place it anywhere with official medals. After WW2, I saw some way at the back with the other unofficial "tolerated" medals.

7) Médaille des Engagés Volontaires, w/bar Engagé Volontaire (Third row) - Is this an official medal? Was it authorised for wear on the military uniform? Where does it fit in?

Unofficial but tolerated for wear from 1871 on until the apparition of the Croix desEngagés Volontaires in 1935.

8) Médaille des Internés de la Resistance, Médaille des InternésPolitiques (Third row) - Where should these fit in?

Sorry, no idea. Most if not all would've been bestowed upon civilians and would probably be their one and only award to wear.

Is there an accepted length for the ribbons on French medals? As youcan see, I've acquired all different lengths over the years.

Nope... Anything goes. I usually keep mine at 3 inches of ribbon max unless various ribbon devices such a rosette or multiple palms or stars demand longer ribbons.

I also have doubts about a number of the pieces which I bought many years ago from a guy in Mt. Vernon, NY. I'll post them later for authentication (or not!)

The medals in your frame look fine to me. And you've got a few rare ones too.

Hugh

Answers inserted into the quote above...

Edited August 21, 2009 by TacHel

[Hugh]

Answers inserted into the quote above...

Thanks for this, Frank, it's a terrific response, and very helpful. I'm guessing those "tolerated" medals wouldn't last long on a soldier on active service, right?

Hugh

[TacHel]

Thanks for this, Frank, it's a terrific response, and very helpful. I'm guessing those "tolerated" medals wouldn't last long on a soldier on active service, right?

Hugh

Actually. tolerated means exactly that. On the uniform of a serving soldier. You can't really enforce rules on civilians or vets.

Notice the last 2 ribbons? Volontaires and Blessés.

[Hugh]

Actually. tolerated means exactly that. On the uniform of a serving soldier. You can't really enforce rules on civilians or vets.

Notice the last 2 ribbons? Volontaires and Blessés.

Thanks for this clarification. What are the first two ribbons on the bottom row? (And who is this guy? He's been around!)

[Bison]

The first two ribbons of the bottom row are :

- Officier du Mérite Social (1936 - 1963)

- Officier du Mérite Sportif (1956 - 1963)

Regards

[Hugh]

Verrrry interesting! I'd have guessed they would go ahead of the campaign medals. Les français sont bien different de nous autres.

[Bison]

Les français sont bien different de nous autres.

C'est bien le problème ...

This is the point ...

But these two Orders are certainly linked with the huge career of this 'Compagnon de la Libération'. He certainly worked for Veteran associations and was certainly involved in youth education institutions after the WWII. This could explain these two orders (social life and sport education). It is not an isolated case.

Begards

Bison (who does'nt feel very different... sometimes)