Golden Kite

[alex82]

Hello

Here are my Kites 7th and 6th class. so the first question is did I date them correst? I used Pauls Topic about dating the kites and I think the 7th class is WWII because of the Showa wing shape of the kite and the silver kanji on the case. the 6th class I belive to be a Meiji piece because it has one roundal more than the other one and there are also old-knaji characters on the case. so does this mean that my 6th class was manufactured between 1890 and 1911?

There is also one other question, I read in Mr. Petersons Book that the 6th class medal is Golden expect the two sword hilts are silver but mine is completely golden including the sword hilts. How can that be?

thank you

a l e x

[alex82]

[Paul L Murphy]

You dated them correctly, well done. The 6th class should have silver hilts. If these are gilt, as they are on your example, I would be concerned that somebody has taken a 7th class piece and gilded it in order to turn it into a 6th class.

[Tim B]

You dated them correctly, well done. The 6th class should have silver hilts. If these are gilt, as they are on your example, I would be concerned that somebody has taken a 7th class piece and gilded it in order to turn it into a 6th class.

Exactly my thoughts as well! Though the gold finish looks original and not something cheaply done with modern electroplating (i/e: bright shiny gold finish), I believe the gold was applied on top of the silver and not the other way around; so what I mean to say is the silver tips are probably not worn away down to the gold finish as the base metal would not have been gold toned. This would then imply the Kite was artificially goldened after the fact, which has been seen to have happened in the past.

Tim

[Tim B]

Alex,

Two other points to consider;

First, though Meiji era 6th class Kites are out there, they are very far and in between and not often seen on the market as much as the Showa era pieces. To date, I have only seen (1) Tashio era Kite in 6th class being offered, just to give some perspective.

Second, if you look at your Kite, you will see the same gold color and tone to the bird (Kite) and the shield. IMO, this points to a medal that has been refinished as these two should have different gilding from one another.

I have included a close-up shot of my Showa 6th class and you can see the silver tips and the gilding differences between the shield and Kite.

Hope that helps you in making a determination one way or the other.

Tim

[Tim B]

Another shot; the gold on the bird should be brighter and a bit more yellow gold compared to the shield. Not the best PICS to show this, but look to the tail feather area and you can see a tone difference between the two.

Tim

Edited August 30, 2009 by Tim B

[alex82]

Hello

Thank you so much for your help, foolishly after taking the picture I made a selection and readjusted the color of the 6th and the 7th class medal in Adobe Photoshop because the flash of my camera left some nasty looking reflections in the picture.

that's the reason the gold and the silver part one the medals looks plain and constant in the Picture, in fact the kite is brighter and shinier than the shield.

I try to make a better picture tomorrow in daylight (without readjusting it - sorry for that!).

In my opinion it looks far from repainted because the color looks really old and by looking at it under a magnifying glass I can see a lot of small scratches and marks (probably from polishing or waring the medal) in the same length and regularity as the 7th class piece have. plus all the very very fine details specially the feathers of the bird would probably be gone after repainting along with the scratches and marks.

could It be that maybe there where also different manufacturers involved in the production of the early kites? there I also the box who says "6th class golden kite medal" in old kanji, if someone repainted a 7th class medal they possibly hadn't a original 6th class case handy...

a l e x

[Paul L Murphy]

Alex,

In 20 years of collecting Japanese medals I have never seen a 6th class kite with gold hilts, nor have I ever heard of one. Even if there were other markers of the order, which there is no evidence to support of which I am aware, they would have had to follow the manufacturing standards laid down. This would have required silver hilts. As Tim points out, the gilding was applied to a silver bade metal so it is not a matter of the hilts wearing down to their base colour since the base colour is silver.

You say there are a number of scratches etc on the medal. If it was a genuine Meiji 7th class then these could be present. If you examine the scrathes can you see any silver coming through ? If there are any deep scratches and there is no sign of silver coming through the gilding then it is a strong sign that it has been regilded since you would expect to see wear to the gilding on a marked genuine piece. The regilding might only be a few microns thick so it would not effect the clarity of the design.

If yuou can post un-enhanced photos and also some close up photos of the area around some of the scratches that could be helpful.

Best regards,

Paul

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

Well, Alex you have the piece in hand and that's always an advantage over looking at PICS online that may not hold the whole story. Better close-ups might tell us more and please include a good PIC of the reverse as well.

I still agree with Paul and tend to lean towards this being a refinished medal, hope I am wrong, but the tips should be silver or at least show some signs of it IMO. As pointed out above, if the medal had been worn or polished down, then you would see signs of:

- Overall wear on the details, which your medal does not show this.

- A overall shiny appearance, not the consistent dull look that yours has.

- Remnants of silver polish in the grooves. That polish seems to have been used most often. I know, as I have to clean out all the little cracks on some of the ones I buy as the white dried polish shows up well in photographs. I do not see any indications of polish on yours; at least not in the PICS.

So, I would recommend a very close look at the medal, especially along the edges and grooves where a modern finish might not have been applied as well or taken as it did on one of the major surfaces. Go from there. I would be very concerned at this point however concerning the lack of silver on the those spear tips.

Last thing, and I understand nobody wants to hear the negative possibilities, but it happens and denile is not just a river in Eqypt. Better to find out now and possibly get your money refunded than later. I am curious to who the seller is and understand if you don't want to publicly name the person. There are many good sellers out there and a few bad ones and this is not the first instance where a fairly common 7th class medal has been refinished in gilt to make it appear more rare and thus command higher premiums.

Hope it works out for you. Keep in mind that one day you will have to move the item and this will be a cause for concern.

Tim

[Richard LaTondre]

Hello

Here are my Kites 7th and 6th class. so the first question is did I date them correst? I used Pauls Topic about dating the kites and I think the 7th class is WWII because of the Showa wing shape of the kite and the silver kanji on the case. the 6th class I belive to be a Meiji piece because it has one roundal more than the other one and there are also old-knaji characters on the case. so does this mean that my 6th class was manufactured between 1890 and 1911?

There is also one other question, I read in Mr. Petersons Book that the 6th class medal is Golden expect the two sword hilts are silver but mine is completely golden including the sword hilts. How can that be?

thank you

a l e x

I have some seventh class kites that are mint but over the years developed a 'gold' patina.

[Richard LaTondre]

I have some seventh class kites that are mint but over the years developed a 'gold' patina over the sword handles.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Richard LaTondre

[Dieter3]

I'm also wondering about that 6th class rosette - granted, these are not Golden Kite rosettes, but didn't earlier awards have thinner rays like in this photo? (photo stolen from a different thread, original credit to TimB! ) The one in Alex's looks like thicker rays. Were the GKs done in a simlar fashion?

[Richard LaTondre]

Believe it or not this is a seventh class with excessive patina.

[alex82]

wow! there was a lot discuss when I was asleep! I will take the kite with me to work today to make some better pictures with a better camera. The Picture Richard posted looks very similar to my medal. There are also 3 deep scratches on the backside of the medal where I can see the silver shining thru. but again I will have some better photos this evening for your professional eyes.

Thank you so much for your help so far

a l e x

[Tim B]

Alex,

The patina or toning that Richard shows on his 7th class Kite is totally different from the monotone gold look your Kite exhibits; not the same. Like coinage, toning depends on storage conditions and what might have laid next to the item over a long period of time. If that item or material chemically reacts to the base metal of the item being discussed, then it will tarnish based on the chemicals involved. Seldom is that toning uniform in nature and your piece is pretty uniform across the medal; too uniform in my opinion to be attributed to toning.

You state that your medal has some deep scratches where you can see silver base metal; this could be another indication it's a 7th class that was refinished; perhaps someone trying to figure out if the piece is really a 6th class or not. I'll wait to see the PICS, but don't be too dissapointed here.

Dieter,

Hard to say on the rosette; I think you are correct in your train of thought, but I do not have a PIC of a lapel device for a Meiji era Kite at the 6th class level. Even then, so little information is out there on bow & rosette lapel devices, I couldn't say with certainty at this point. Keep in mind that most Japanese sellers will mix and match sets with no regard to periods or matching items just to be able to sell something complete "as a set" but the pieces often do not match up. Perhaps Paul can chime in with more information.

On the subject of the toned Kite that Richard shows in his post, it is common to see these for sale and on occasion incorrectly listed as the 6th class award, often after artificially toning these pieces with a sulfur-based compound, so you do have to watch out and know that you can trust the seller.

Tim :cheers:

[alex82]

ok, I took new Photos with a new Nikon D90 in unfiltered Daylight and without adjusting the color in Photoshop. Tim your right the first picture I took looks very dull und fake - again sorry for that.

These Pictures should give a better Image of what the medal really looks like…

[alex82]

[alex82]

This is made with a macro lens, without direct sunlight…

still the medal looks real to me but I'm very curious what the experts think

a l e x

[Tim B]

Well Alex, I don't what to say, the color sure looks believable. I have a couple of 7th class Sacred Treasures that I will try to post tomorrow (I don't have one photographed yet) and will try to show a color comparison as one has this brassier gold color similar to this Kite, where the other one is bright toned gold, like an old gold coin.

I haven't seen that many Meiji Kites in gilt (two or three) and I remember that one for sure had the silver tips to the spears as it was in near pristine condition (marked with an "M" for the Osaka mint as well). I think the others did as well, just don't remember and didn't save the PICS.

Wait to hear from the others at this point as I am certainly no expert when it comes to Japanese ODM's. I was going to say that the reverse scratches might have been an attempt to artificially age the piece and give it a worn look, but one of my 7th class is scratched similar to this as well, so...?

Talk to you tomorrow!

Tim

[Paul L Murphy]

Alex,

The medal itself is real, what is questionable is the class. After seeing these photos there are three possibilities. Firstly it is a 7th class with heavy patina (similar to Dick's); secondly there is a heavy patina on the hilts and they are actually silver underneath; or thirdly it is a 7th class that was gilded to make it look like a 6th class. In order to eliminate the first two possibilities I suggest you wash it in warm soapy water (take care not to wet the ribbon) using a soft toothbrush (or a brush with natural bristles, not nylon). If it is a thick patina then this will clean it. If the medal is still gilt everywhere then I think it has been gilded and is actually a 7th class (the fact that the scratches on the reverse continue to show what appears to be gilt underneath supports this).

Regards,

Paul

Edited August 31, 2009 by Paul L Murphy

[alex82]

Thank you paul and tim, I will try this this evening (even if I'm a bit afraid of washing and cleaning a medal) and let you know the result. Here is also closeup…

[alex82]

If this is reglit it must bean done a wile ago there is some dark patina in the edges…

[Richard LaTondre]

This is made with a macro lens, without direct sunlight…

still the medal looks real to me but I'm very curious what the experts think

a l e x

Alex,

Your medal looks genuine to me as well. Attached is another 6cl of mine that has the same condition. The front has quite a bit of patina or 'toning'. The back is bright silver (the same as yours). I have several more 6cl in my collection that look the same. To remove the patina, which I feel adds interest as well as beauty to the medal, I use a mild solution of Tarn-X, a commercial jewelers product that is used on silver and fine gold. As Paul said, protect the ribbon.

Dick

[Tim B]

I haven't had time to take any more PICS yet but read some new posts and wanted to add:

****DO NOT USE TARN-X****

Tarn-X will eventually destroy your medal or coin or whatever you're using it on. It is a very strong anti-tarnishing liquid that effectively strips away the top layer of material in order to get back down to the original base metal. It may only strip away a few microns at a time, but the medal (or coin) then retarnishes and you have to repeat the process again. You also have to make sure the liquid residue is completely removed after using it or it will continue to eat into the item and you can smell it.

Remember, that tarnish, often affectionately termed "toning" or "patina" is a natural process that occurs when the metal oxidizes to the air over time. Steel turns to rust, brass/bronze turns green, etc. This is a natural chemical occurance of the metal reacting with the air and is the way the metal protects itself with this layer of oxidation to retard the process of deterioration. By using a cleaning compound such as Tarn-X, you effectively strip away that protective layer and the metal then has to re-oxidize to protects itself again. Don't just take my word on it, do some research or ask other collectors. BAD STUFF--Don't use it!

I have seen people lose light enraving on the reverse of badges by using it, just to name an example. It also has a tendancy to add artificially toned looks that do not appear natural either and you can tell the differences when comparing to items that have toned naturally. Bad juju in coin collecting.

Enough said.

Tim

Edited August 31, 2009 by Tim B

[Dieter3]

If you do attempt to service the medallion in any way, I'd wrap that ribbon in plastic before you get remotely close to it with anything liquid! I'm a klutz myself so I need to do things like this for protection.