Douglas Jr. Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Hello folks, Well, I don't know exactly where to post this but let's give it a try here. All I know is that it was probably made in London in 1545(?). Here is the deal: a friend of mine sent me these pictures. It seems that a person that he knows has or found this ancient cannon. He wants to know more and, if possible, its value. I have no further pictures or any other information regarding its size or caliber. Any (I mean ANY) information is more than welcome. Thanks in advance Douglas.
Mervyn Mitton Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Douglas - I wouldn't think as early as you suggest - after all, that would make it during the reign of Henry 8th - and that is very early. I would have thought more likely to be 18th. Century (1700's) and for a ship - but it really needs an antique gun expert - such as The Royal Armouries at Leeds to give an opinion. From the photos it doesn't appear to be very big - possibly a 4 pounder or, 6 lbs.. Perhaps for a merchant ship - Naval ones often had the Royal initials (cypher) or, coat-of-arms. The head around the 'touch hole' - where the priming powder was put and which ignited the main charge - is of Medusa. The Greek horror whose hair was of snakes and who could turn people into stone if they looked into her eyes (one of the tasks of Hercules was to kill her ) - so a good subject for the gun. I suggest you write out the wording - I couldn't read it clearly and send it with the photos to : THE ROYAL ARMOURIES LEEDS. U.K. I'm sure the post office will find them - or, look on Google for their email and forward. Please let us know what you find out , but, hopefully a member with more knowledge will be be able to add.
Guest Rick Research Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 I can't read what it says above the Medusa head either, but from the script style of "London" I agree with Mervyn that it is most likley 18th century. If-- in these days of almost global metrics-- you can measure it in INCHES: there is a formula for the diameter of the muzzle that comes out at how many pounds the cannon ball weighed. I can't find it at the moment but I'm sure somebody will know. (It could be as simple as every inch = 1 pound weight.) It does indeed look like a very small, short range gun that would have been more useful for anti-personnel use than ship to ship. So it is not a broadside gun but something mounted on one of the upper decks for close range.
Brian Wolfe Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 I agree that is is not military or at least not a government piece. Due to the size and shape I wonder if it could have been employed to signal the approach of a ship to the harbour etc. It looks too large to be a "rampart gun" The photos may be distorting the cannon a bit but I'm thinking it is a private purchase use to signal. This is a pure guess of course. Regards Brian
Douglas Jr. Posted September 14, 2009 Author Posted September 14, 2009 I would like to thank you all for the information and tips kindly provided. I will ask for more detailed pictures and measures. It might be useful. Regards, Douglas
TS Allen Posted September 15, 2009 Posted September 15, 2009 Hello, With measurements and more detailed pictures we can do a lot more. A gun from the reign of Henry VIII would be incredibly rare, and also, probably wouldn't look like this! Generally, earlier guns are more "straight," they don't decrease as much in overall width as you move towards the muzzle. This piece looks eighteenth century to me, the script does, as well. Also, looking quickly at a book I have, "Round Shot and Rammers," by Harold L. Peterson, which covers US artillery (and thus, early on, many English pieces), an English brass demi-cannon from 1542 has a Rose and Crown device, a piece from 1554, a brass minion, a royal shield. Some of them have fox-head decorations on them, none have medusas. I suspect civilian, although, if its located in the US or South America, it could have seen military use. When Henry Knox set up the American artillery corps, he took whatever he could get. The same was true in much of the world, during the siege of Ladysmith, Redvers Buller used a bronze artillerypiece on a naval carriage called "Lord Nelson" in the defense of the town. The Boers as late as the Jameson raid also had at least one well-known bronze gun, the name escapes me (I can look it up if anyone's interested, I know where the book is). And, of course, non-military medusa-heads and nautical guns could very well increase the pure monetary value, as it suddenly becomes a potential pirate piece! Also, a description of the material would help me in identifying it. It appears to be iron, but painted, who can tell? To quote the book "Given the almost infinite variety of 16th and 17th century cannon, it is nearly impossible to offer valid generalizations concerning sizes, materials, or colors. Except for the wrought iron swivel guns and the leather cannon, almost all artillery of this era was cast in bronze. The iron pieces were painted black as a rule,though some appear to have been coated with red lead only. Bronze pieces were normally kept clean." Later weapons are a different story, but, I can be of help there with the material as well! An iron gun of above a certain size can be said to be unlikely or impossible before a certain date, a steel gun, and we all get to talk about the Krupps! The book also allows me to check many of the potential shot sizes/ guns types for later years, its very complete in this respect, so please, more measurements! And, as the gun is English, only Imperial units (we may as well call them American units any more) will do! ~TS
Douglas Jr. Posted September 17, 2009 Author Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) TS, Thanks a lot for your very informative answer. I already requested to the current owner of this cannon to provide me with its measures, caliber and, if possible, with more pictures. He just tell me that it is made of iron (not bronze). I will post this data here as soon as I get it. Douglas. Edited September 17, 2009 by Douglas Jr.
Hugh Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 It does indeed look like a very small, short range gun that would have been more useful for anti-personnel use than ship to ship. So it is not a broadside gun but something mounted on one of the upper decks for close range. Guns of this type were often described as stern or bow chasers, and were used just as Rick describes. Hugh
Douglas Jr. Posted September 18, 2009 Author Posted September 18, 2009 It's me again, now with the measures. Total Lenght - 100cm (40 in) Weight - a. 200kg (440 pounds) Caliber - 8cm (3.15 in) Rear Width - 30cm (11.8 in) Front Width (at the barrel's end) - 20cm (8 in) Largest width (at the suport "pins") - 40cm (16 in) Thanks once more for all the help and information provided! Douglas
Douglas Jr. Posted October 7, 2009 Author Posted October 7, 2009 Well, I posted the measures... Is there anything else that can be added based on this information? Any hints about its value would be appreciated. Thanks again, Douglas.
Mervyn Mitton Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Sorry Douglas - didn't realise we hadn't responded to the measurements. I don't think there is any great mystery with this cannon. Nearly all merchantmen carried fairly small cannon to try and defend themselves against pirates and enemy ships. Their crews were not highly trained and therefore, these 4 to 6 lb. (1 3/4 K - 2 1/2K ) could be more easily managed. Had it been for a warship - as we have said - it would more probably have Royal Cyphers, dates etc.. Value wise - people like to have them in their gardens, and particularly a pair , either side of the front door. Unfortunately, their weight -even of iron and much more so if they are brass, makes them worth stealing for scrap. I suppose, with luck , it could be worth about £600. ($750 $800). You have to remember that it is a dismounted cannon - and whilst the trunnions are still-on, a carriage would have to be made. Edited October 8, 2009 by Mervyn Mitton
Douglas Jr. Posted October 8, 2009 Author Posted October 8, 2009 Sorry Douglas - didn't realise we hadn't responded to the measurements. I don't think there is any great mystery with this cannon. Nearly all merchantmen carried fairly small cannon to try and defend themselves against pirates and enemy ships. Their crews were not highly trained and therefore, these 4 to 6 lb. (1 3/4 K - 2 1/2K ) could be more easily managed. Had it been for a warship - as we have said - it would more probably have Royal Cyphers, dates etc.. Value wise - people like to have them in their gardens, and particularly a pair , either side of the front door. Unfortunately, their weight -even of iron and much more so if they are brass, makes them worth stealing for scrap. I suppose, with luck , it could be worth about £600. ($750 $800). You have to remember that it is a dismounted cannon - and whilst the trunnions are still-on, a carriage would have to be made. Mervyn, Thanks again for your kind and helpful reply. All the best, Douglas
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