HeikoGrusdat Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Today I want to show you something a bit freaky but very interesting in my eyes !!! Big cardboard photo of a Baden officer with nice 5 place medal bar (as far as I can see) totally NONCOM - and please note that the photo is made in June 1916 (middle of war) in Bruxelles (far away from home in enemy country!!!) - there is not even a simple EK2 , nothing from that war.... I think he is some kind of Beamter but I am not shure... any comments on this guy are welcome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 detail ... unfortunately the picture is a bit blurry around the medal bar area but I think the orders are good to see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Heiko, Can you zoom in on the shoulder boards? Thanks, Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 OK...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Too bad it is so fuzzy and rough paper finish. Looks to me like the second award is a Verdienstkreuz of the Zähringen Lion Order rather than a Prussian XX because of the strange huge ring. Will see what turns up from 1914... (clock on) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 No active, reserve, or Landwehr officer of any unit or Landwehrbezirk in XIV. Armeekorps... so I suspect another "invisible" Beamter. The BZ4 will NOT show up in a Rank List, only the higher BZ3(b?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Think the same, invisible Beamter with BZ3b, BZ4, Baden 1902, KO4 and ÖFJ4. Very nice one! The BZ4 will NOT show up in a Rank List, only the higher BZ3(b?). Never realzied this... hum. But lower grade merit medals are shown... foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 (edited) Since I'm adding Baden to my collection this thread really interests me. What are the medals? I don't understand the abbreviations. Many Thanks in advance. Doc Edited September 26, 2009 by Riley1965 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 From the officer's/official's rank, deduce that the first award is Baden Order of the Zähringen Lion-Knight 2nd Class (BZ3b) The second cross, which is very blurred but has the tell-tale large "fore and aft" suspension ring sticking out, is the lower ranking Merit Cross of that Order (BZ4) which in cases like this, the usual practice was to list ONLY the higher grade in period Rank Lists etc. Another example would be a wartime Bavarian Leutnant who got a class of their Merit Cross and then the Merit Order 4X-- ONLY the latter would be listed in Rank Lists. Dumb, but normal period practice-- and makes our research work immeasurably harder, since a LISTED pair of BZ3b and BZ4 would leap off a page at us. Next Baden 1902 Jubilee Medal Prussian Crown Order 4th Class (KO4) Austro-Hungarian Franz Joseph Order-Knight (ÖFJ3) Which is why we less than terrific typists use the Rank List abbreviations that our mainds process these things in, anyway. This man was not an officer or military official in 1897, or he'd have the Wilhelm I Centenary Medal. Either he entered military service after that or he was a Baden civil official with wartime appointed rank. Can't see the boards clearly enough to tell what he was. I suspect that he is simply not wearing one of the ugly pre-1913 NCO long service brooches and is simply wearing his old pre-1913 medal bar since he's got nothing from the war to add to it. My first thought at seeing him was "Paymaster," but I suspect some other Beamten branch with higher rank and far less service. He is remarkably (truly remarkably) well decorated PRE-war to have received NOTHING ( ) at the mid point of the war!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Thanks Rick!!! I need to see an abbreviation list to start putting them to memory. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Abbreviations and necessary accent marks to make them = http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=798 just copy and print out so you have 'em always next to your keyboard and never have to flip back and forth between threads. You should hear us when we get together for Show & Tells-- it's like Old Doods "tweeting" who don't even know what THAT is! PS, hard to remember when threads here only had 3 digits!!!! :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 I suspect that he is simply not wearing one of the ugly pre-1913 NCO long service brooches and is simply wearing his old pre-1913 medal bar since he's got nothing from the war to add to it. Unlikely... a Baden EM or NCO had to have been in service for about or nine years to get the 1902 medal, so none could wear this without the 1897 medal. Only civilians and (young)officers could get 1902 without 1897... Like your other explanations much more, especially "civil official with wartime appointed rank". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 That's good to know. Your 1902 remains one of my research nightmares. So he's got to be in a Baden Hof- und Staatshandbuch. :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Hi Rick, Thanks for the list!!! I've copied and saved it. I'll print it next month when i get a new printer. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well well well... the 1913 Baden Hof- und Staatshandbuch DOES list BOTH BZ3bs and BZ4s (what they abbreviated as "VKvBZ") together. Been through it. The various departments closed data returns between October and December 1912 for this edition, so a 1914 would be nice to find (sasssssssssssssssssssssssssssscha!!!! ). Out of the entire Baden civil service I found TWO guys with 4 of the 5. many many many with the Baden trio. Of the two, my main Lead Suspect would be Polizei Inspektor and Bezirks Amt Mannheim Bezirksrat KONRAD MENG because as a policeman, he'd be more likely to have found himself in a uniform with a spike helmet. The only other "4 of 5" (same Baden trio, the KO4, and neither with ÖFJ4) was Osterburken railways official, Bahnverwalter ALBERT BEYER who would surely have been employed in the occupied territory AS a railwayman. This is NOT to suggest that none of the dozens of Baden-trio holders of 1913 (1912) might not have racked up the two additional awards in the 18 months before the war started... but it seems rather unlikely. Most were very local officials (school teachers, small city councillors, bureaucrats in finance or tax etc offices). So MIGHT be ... anybody else. But policemen and railways officials were more likely to pick up presents from passing through Royals. Couldn't tell you how many hotel detectives and station masters I've seen on pre-war rolls. Lots. But these two above seem the best place to START searching. Newither got a Zähringen Lion with Xs during the war. (IF it wasn't so COLD and rainy I wouldn't have so much "spare" time to wander around obsciure sources....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dwyer Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 ...who would surely have been employed in the occupied territory AS a railwayman... Rick, I'm probably wrong, but here's a thought...all of the railway units listed in the 1914 list of the Prussian army are Prussian, there are none from the other states, so if the railway guy was activated into military service, wouldn't he be wearing a Prussian helmet, not a Baden one? I realize the Grand Duchy of Baden was a part of the Kingdom of Prussia, but I would think they would have to have their own railway unit for a railway man to be wearing a Baden helmet. I'm looking at this from the point of view that it reinforces your idea that it is NOT the railway man you found, but more likely the policeman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Railways personnel in the occupied territories simply continued wearing their normal railways uniforms. The Third Reich's nationalized Reichsbahn did the same in the next war. This was taken in either occupied France or Belgium from the partially seen station sign I've cropped to get closer uniform details. Here are 4 railwaymen from at least three different states--note collar rank, cap badges, and lack of shoulder boards-- mingled with security soldiers drawn from a Train (supply branch not railways!)unit-- swords on or around trains... That's why I think Meng is a better suspect than Beyer. We need COLOR to distinguish some police from army uniforms/insignia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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