Phil Steele Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Hi Guys, One of the first Krim shields I added to my collection last year is what I now know to be called by collectors as the T Rex or Flat Chested Krim. Since then I have added a second of the same type to my collection of Krims. I believe there are some collectors out there, primarily Russian collectors, who doubt their authenticity and to add some fuel to that fire I have noticed that this shield is not present in Webers book on the Krim Shield. They are not included in Webers list of known examples nor are they listed in the Fake section of that book. I have not spoken to the author so I am completely mystified as to why. I would like those out there with any knowledge on the subject of Krims and in particular those collectors who have an example of this shield in their collection to let me know what they think. Firstly I am going to state that I do believe they are original shields. Although in this first photo I will show you I could understand why anybody would doubt that. This shield I dont think was ever issued. There is some doubt as to the originality of the paper backing and indeed the backing cloth but I know very little about each but I do believe the shield to be a good one. As you can see it is virtually untarnished by age and yes there is a chance it could have been cleaned prior to my purchase but I doubt it. As you will see in the next few pictures the detail around the eagles talons and wreath surrounding the swastika are virtually devoid of detail. Call it a weak strike if you like but I think when this shield was made the die was just about had it and as this area of the shield is one of the highest points on the shield then it stands to reason that this area will wear the quickest. As I said if this were my only shield of this type and somebody said they are fakes then I probably would listen to them. However check out this shield which was the first one I purchased. This is the same design but an earlier strike even though it is made of zinc. Here is the reverse of both shields. I dont think anyone could argue that the second shield is original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Here are a few close ups of the two shields...no need to point out which one is which as I am sure that shows quite clearly. I have seen a few of these shields on the market in well respected and not so well respected dealers and I have also seen them mentioned briefly on WAF but no real discussion can I find on these shields. I am hoping to generate enough interest to maybe put to bed once and for all the doubt that still hangs over these shields. (Tim, Peter...hey my pics are getting better) Phil:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Hi Phil! Umm, you sure your shields are made out of zinc? There appears to be a lot of corrosion (rust) on those two and zinc doesn't rust. Tim :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Dohhh....I have owned that second shield for a year or so now and for some reason I always thought or assumed it to be made of zinc... The old magnet test reveals otherwise....boy what a dope (why is their no Homer Simpson Icon). Sorry Tim both shields are stamped steel which actually makes my theory of a worn out die for the pristine example far more feasible. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 :lol: Well grasshopper, sometimes we are so busy looking at the small things, we overlook the big ones. No big deal, I've done that sort of thing in the past as well. Of all the shields of this particular style, I have only seen one or two that are really sharp in details throughout and I think (if the PICs are still there ) you can search WAF for the old threads. Here's mine, in pretty decent shape, though the details are just not pristine like most Krims, so exactly where in any timeline or if the die was never that well made..? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Note the rust on the eagle's head, shoulders and top surface areas. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Mine has a really nice vault to it, does either one of yours? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I think Dion nicknamed this one the T-Rex...never understood why. Not one of my favourites but I don't doubt it's originality. KR...Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Phil, I meant to add; I wouldn't give much concern to the fact Weber doesn't show this one (or any one for that matter) in his book, or that some on the Russian forums don't see these ground dug and thus, must be fakes. I have seen dealers and collectors alike hold on to stuff in their "inventory" and not show it as nobody else is showing like items. I don't know if it's fear of a piece being labled as "bad" or questionable, or if they just have doubt's themselves but, we see new revelations come up every year where something that was never seen before or considered not genuine, change status due to a new piece of evidence coming to light. Kind of makes you wonder what else is out there. Major dealers only list a small portion of their actual inventory when updating and have lots of stuff in the back, that way they always have more to offer every week and like DeBeers, can control the flow of certain items and of course the price being asked. Classic supply & demand rules. Why do you think if you ask dealers to find you something, it usually doesn't take long to hear, "Hey! I found what you're looking for" (for a premium of course!). This type of Krim was rarely seen a few years ago and now we see more and more. Either the "supply" is feeling more comfortable releasing them, or we are seeing a lot of fake items and made-up groupings that have these in them. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I think Dion nicknamed this one the T-Rex...never understood why. Not one of my favourites but I don't doubt it's originality. KR...Peter Hi Peter! Yea, seems like it was the Russians that called it "flat-chested" and Dion thought the head looked like a dinsosaur (T-Rex). I can see it, then again, I have issues. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi Tim... Just out of interest, why do we all assume a second type from the same maker was/is a later shield. For instance...1 Million Krim shield's were awarded so at least that many were produced...probably close to 1.5 Million. So once the contracts were awarded, wouldn't a company like Deumer/Wurster/Orth make and run two or more die stamps at the same time...hence that's maybe why the designs are so close to each other. Best...Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi Tim... Just out of interest, why do we all assume a second type from the same maker was/is a later shield. For instance...1 Million Krim shield's were awarded so at least that many were produced...probably close to 1.5 Million. So once the contracts were awarded, wouldn't a company like Deumer/Wurster/Orth make and run two or more die stamps at the same time...hence that's maybe why the designs are so close to each other. Best...Peter Hi Peter! I assume the comment is general in nature and not specifically directed to this "type" Krim in this thread? If so, then.. Yes, entirely possible. I don't know the average life expectancy of a die that produces these type stampings but, remember that the Krim shield was initially authorized in July 1942 and the end date for awards in October 1943, though most probably were awarded by April '43. Most soldiers probably received a minumium of three shields for their uniforms and of course, there had to be some kind of after-market for replacements. Now, considering all the different manufacturers that had license to manufacture these Krim shields (including all those different "unknown maker" varieties), would any one manufacturer need a long-term view of this one award with inclusive dates, and more than one die to fill that supply? ... Apparently, in the case of Deumer, Wurster, and to a lessor degree, Orth, it would appear those guys did. It's estimated that only about 300,000 soldiers qualified for the Krim shield, so with 3-5 shields per man, that puts an estimate on the "demand" for around 1-1.5 million shields total. How the contracts were split I have no idea, but can only assume that Deumer, Wurster, and Orth (and maybe one or two that we don't know "who" yet) got more than the lions share compared to others like Josef Feix & Sohne, Maedicke, and some of those other "unknown" manufacturers ended up getting. That, based simply on the amount and type of shields we see available on the market today. Now, would any of those manufacturers have put more than one die into operation at any gven time, I don't know, but it kind of seems unlikely to me as it would all be demand driven, again depending on life expectancy of the die IMHO. Best, Tim :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi Peter! I assume the comment is general in nature and not specifically directed to this "type" Krim in this thread? If so, then.. Yes, entirely possible. I don't know the average life expectancy of a die that produces these type stampings but, remember that the Krim shield was initially authorized in July 1942 and the end date for awards in October 1943, though most probably were awarded by April '43. Most soldiers probably received a minumium of three shields for their uniforms and of course, there had to be some kind of after-market for replacements. Now, considering all the different manufacturers that had license to manufacture these Krim shields (including all those different "unknown maker" varieties), would any one manufacturer need a long-term view of this one award with inclusive dates, and more than one die to fill that supply? ... Apparently, in the case of Deumer, Wurster, and to a lessor degree, Orth, it would appear those guys did. Now, would any of those manufacturers have put more than one die into operation at any gven time, I don't know, but it kind of seems unlikely to me as it would all be demand driven, again depending on life expectancy of the die IMHO. Best, Tim Hi Tim...that's my point. If, say Deumer was contracted for 100-200 thousand pieces, wouldn't it make economic sense to cut 2 (or more) die's at the same time. Looking at the 'Missing Log' Demjansk, the die could well have started to break down after 50 thousand shield's (that's a guess) resulting in the flaws we see. KR..Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 Hi Guys, Interesting comments here. Firstly I too can see the T Rex link so I also must have the same issues. Yes both my T Rex Krims are heavily vaulted. Tim that is interesting food for thought regarding the dealers inventory etc. Never really thought about it before but it does make a lot of sense. I have only once ever asked a specific dealer to contact me in respect to an item he didnt show on his web site. I was sent an immediate reply stating that he actually had two of them. Could well be right about this controlling the flow. I must start sending off a few emails regarding a Narvik as I am having a devil of a time trying to find one at a realistic price. Peter you raise a good point but I dont think anybody could answer that for you unless you found an old worker from one of the awards factories although surely someone must have some idea how long a die would last for this type of work. It would seem that some manufacturers did indeed get more than an equal share in the production of Krims whilst others (not necessarily smaller manufactureres) got the crumbs so to speak. Maybe factories like Deumer and the other more commonly seen makers of known Krims could not keep up demand thus prompting other makers to be given smaller contracts. Who knows but I just dont see more than one die being used at a time but again a guess. Back to the T Rex I would be interested to know if any ZINC T Rex Krims exist and if any original backing paper other than the black or green were used. As said I very much doubt the authenticity of the backing paper on the back of that first pictured shield and I know what you guys think as well. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Phil, As far as I know, I have never seen a "T-Rex" version in zinc. On the die questions; too many variables to answer without actually being able to talk to someone back then or find any records on the subject from those companies. Obviously, something that probably won't happen, as if those people are still alive today, they don't want to discuss that painful part of history or the role their companies had in it. So, we may never really know. If we use Deumer as an example here: - We see a major manufacturer that produced a wide variety of awards in all areas (Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, Heer, etc.) and in earlier metals as well as later zinc produced items. So, this manufacturer was in business for the entire period and clearly by the wide variety of items produced, given a large portion of awards contracts. - Looking at the Krim shield though and IMO, counter to the thought of placing multiple dies in use simultaneously, we see a single die throughout (evidenced by an identical die flaw), and what clearly appears to be die wear progression from the more detailed head to the more rounded (worn) head of later models. Where the "flat-head" comes in, I can't say exactly at this point but wonder if this isn't another indication that it came earlier, prior to the wear in the head area and that die fault. I also wonder if the attachments pins really make a difference or if they were just used as "available stock on hand". It's the shield die characteristics that make the difference as the pins were added later in the process. These manufacturers didn't care about what type of pins were used, they just needed something to connect through the cloth and backplate holes and bend over to secure the shield to the plate. They were covered up with backing paper and would eventually be covered upon sewing to a uniform anyway. Perhaps, we as collectors, are reading too much into this small detail and both types of attaching pins were used throughout this timeline. This would make more sense why we see Deumer shields with the needle style pins and having the die wear and fault while appearing to be made later than those with the flat style pins. So, in short, perhaps both style were used simultaneously and as Andrei showed in the other thread, shields with a combination of pin styles existed as well. No transistion period, just stock on hand. Afterall, these were made as functional uniform accouterments, not collector items. Keep in mind too, it's late 1942, going into 1943. America has just joined the war, there is no end of war in site and Germany has been in this fight for over three years now-hard! War materials are starting to get short and manufacturers are probably starting to feel the hurt as well. The order to switch over to zinc occurred during this period and perhaps everyone was starting to look at more cost-effective and efficient methods of producing these items like intregrating hinge and catches into badges vice separately attaching these items that had to be produced separately. Maybe this is where some switched over to the edge tabs on shields, intregrating the "attachment" method directly into the main shield design. Food for thought! Tim :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hey Guys, Tim well said and couldnt agree more. As I have said before I think it is false to place too much emphasis on pins and pieces of wire that are there for the sole reason of attaching the medal, badge, or whatever to the wearer. I have no doubt that if a company making shields ran out of flat wire but had plenty of round wire then of course they would use it. Again it was only to keep the shield attached to the backplate and cloth. It was not an intricate part of the design. Guys I have to be honest and say I believe we collectors are indeed looking at things in far too much detail. They are as you said Tim, mass produced awards for combat etc. They are not items of jewelery or works of art. On a personal note at the end of the day all I really want to know is if the thing is genuine or not. I guess others really want to know who made it but unless the item is maker marked or come off a company board then its complete guess work and too much imagination is being used to try and establish this information. Of course I am not referring to making sure the shield/badge/medal or whatever is genuine...that is an entirely different ball game. Cheers guys. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Yep, I'd agree with all of that. Well put Tim. In fact the State stopped the use of Brass (Tombak/Cupal) in awards in 1942. Manufacturers were only permitted to use this metal on pins assemblies. And of course you're probably right Phil...firms would have used the stock available at the time for the prong attachment. But I have to disagree...I think the Buntmetal LW Narvik is a work of art..... :love: Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Peter, Any chance you get to show that beauty off, and knowing full well that Phil doesn't have one of these yet! Beautiful! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Sorry about that...slightly but any chance I get... I'll start a thread on Unknown krims and you can post up that Maedicke.. Best...Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 :cheeky: Just as long as you don't start showing Cholms!!! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Righto guys find me a Narvik because I cant....found one for a ridiculous price and I am not convinced the backing paper is genuine. Same website as that Demjansk with the backing paper you were talking to Peter about Tim. Lovely looking but not for that price. And guys I am serious. On the subject of T Rex Krims I think that will do me....all I really wanted to know was the overall concensus amongst the collectors regarding it and that question has been answered here. Appreciate it now find me a Narvik. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi Phil, Okay, but be careful what you're asking for... I can gladly help you spend your money, but your wife may not like me. I assume this is the one you were referring to? Yes, outrageously priced as is the Demjansk; nice but not that nice and I agree that backing on the Narvik is not original (IMHO). All about the $$$$ now. Tim Oh, silver or gold? Luft or Heer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Steele Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Yes Tim thats the one...beautiful shield to be sure and I too questioned the paper backing. As to type...not fussy just as long as it has NARVIK on it. Oh yeah the wifes cool....she wears her collection on her fingers so no problem.:blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Nice shield for sure but no way the cloth and paper are period to the shield. Where does this one come from. Phil, I do have a KM Shield if you're looking for one. I'll post it up later. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter BL Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 (edited) There you go Phil...Zinc shield/double clothed....E-mail me if you like it. Peter Edited February 2, 2010 by Peter Baillie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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