20th Hussars

[farrar]

My grandfather joined the 20th Hussars in 1896.

He went to India in1898 for 3 years

then to south Africa in 1901 for 18 months

then to Egypt for a year before spending 5 years back in England

In 1910 He went to India (Mhow) where he was stationed for 5 years before going to Mesopatamia where he was taken ill and retired from the Army after 21 years.

My grandfather served in 20th Hussars for the whole of his career and, as previously stated, was stationed in Mhow 1910 - 1915. The 20th Hussar website says that they were in France in 1914 so I am confused as to whether the 20th Hussars were in Mhow or France at this time. My grandfather married in mhow in 1912, my uncle was born in Mhow in 1913 and my father was born in Kailano (somewhere near Mhow) in 1914.

One story that is accepted as fact by the family is that my grandfather won a medal as the best rifleshot in India (we have seen the medal). However he became too fat to be a cavalry soldier so became sergeant cook, in the 20 Hussars, because they did not want to lose such a good rifleman. Could this be true? my grandfather was an irishman with a gift for embellishing stories. I would really appreciate any info on Mhow, Kailano and 20 Hussars. Specifically

1) where were 20 Hussars in 1914 - 1918

2) how many men were actively serving in the hussars in 1914

3) comments on the story of him being too good a rifleshot for the 20 Hussars to lose

4) what were the conditions in Mhow at this time

Thanks, Farrar

[Guest pikemedals]

hi, in r.gould book the 20th hussars went to france on the 18/08/14 then egypt ??/08/19 and turkey 01/06/20 to the ??/10/20 that all i got on the 20th hussars to help you paul

Edited May 29, 2010 by pikemedals

[Hugh]

My grandfather joined the 20th Hussars in 1896.

He went to India in1898 for 3 years

then to south Africa in 1901 for 18 months

then to Egypt for a year before spending 5 years back in England

In 1910 He went to India (Mhow) where he was stationed for 5 years before going to Mesopatamia where he was taken ill and retired from the Army after 21 years.

My grandfather served in 20th Hussars for the whole of his career and, as previously stated, was stationed in Mhow 1910 - 1915. The 20th Hussar website says that they were in France in 1914 so I am confused as to whether the 20th Hussars were in Mhow or France at this time. My grandfather married in mhow in 1912, my uncle was born in Mhow in 1913 and my father was born in Kailano (somewhere near Mhow) in 1914.

One story that is accepted as fact by the family is that my grandfather won a medal as the best rifleshot in India (we have seen the medal). However he became too fat to be a cavalry soldier so became sergeant cook, in the 20 Hussars, because they did not want to lose such a good rifleman. Could this be true? my grandfather was an irishman with a gift for embellishing stories. I would really appreciate any info on Mhow, Kailano and 20 Hussars. Specifically

1) where were 20 Hussars in 1914 - 1918

2) how many men were actively serving in the hussars in 1914

3) comments on the story of him being too good a rifleshot for the 20 Hussars to lose

4) what were the conditions in Mhow at this time

Thanks, Farrar

Were 20th Hussars a 2 battalion regiment at that time? If so, one could be serving in Mhow and the other sent to France.

Hugh

[GRA]

Hello Farrar!

The 20th Hussars went to France from Colchester, where they had been stationed since 1911, together with the Royal Scots Greys and the 12th Royal Lancers they made up the 5th Cavalry Brigade. As Paul says, they went to France on August 18th 1914, landing at Le Havre. It seems like the 20th Hussars and the Greys were brigaded together in the 1908 manoeuvres, and considering that the Royal Scots Greys didn't go overseas on a peace-time posting until 1920, the 20th Hussars might have spent their time "at home" already in 1908, instead of in India. (Source: 20th Hussars in the Great War, Major J.C. Darling DSO)

The Mhow Brigade (part of the 2nd Indian Cavalry Division) was made up of the 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons, 2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse) and 38th King George's Own Central India Horse, leaving for Europe in 1914. The other British regiments in India returning to Europe in 1914 were 1st King's Dragoon Guards (Lucknow Bde), 7th Dragoon Guards (Secunderabad Bde), 8th Hussars (Ambala Bde), 13th Hussars (Meerut Bde) and 17th Lancers (Sialkot Bde). (Source: A History of the British Cavalry vol. 7, The Marquess of Anglesey)

If I recall correctly, the 14th Hussars fought in Mesopotamia during WW1.

/Jonas

Edited May 29, 2010 by GRA

[GRA]

Were 20th Hussars a 2 battalion regiment at that time? If so, one could be serving in Mhow and the other sent to France.

Hugh

No, the 20th Hussars left for France with RHQ, A Sqn, B Sqn and C Sqn, which was made up from the peace-time regiment and reservists. Some individuals were left behind to make up the regimental depot, and some individuals were on extra-regimental postings such as serving with yeomanry units or on staff positiions. It was about as much as a British regular cavalry regiment could field, some yeomanry regiments had duplicate units, and the Household Cavalry was a little more complex.

/Jonas

[GRA]

After having raided the book-shelves again, I also took a look at some old notes, which yielded some more information on the 20th Hussars, as well as the 14th Hussars (which seems to be of some relevance for the topic at hand):

20th Hussars postings;

-1896 England (last station Colchester)

1896-1902 India (Mhow)

(1901-1902 South Africa)

1903 Egypt (Abbasia Barracks, Cairo)

1904-1906 England (Brighton, det. in Canterbury)

1906-1908 England (Shorncliffe Camp, relieving 14th Hussars and providing a draft of 72 enlisted men for them)

1908-1911 Ireland (The Curragh)

1911-1914 England (Colchester)

1914-1919 WW1 (Western Front only)

1919 England

1919 Egypt

1920 Turkey

1920-1922 Egypt (?)

1922 England

14th Hussars postings;

1903-1904 England (Aldershot)

1904-1906 England (Shorncliff Camp)

1906-1911 India (Bangalore)

1911-1914 India (Mhow)

1914-1915 India (Meerut)

1915-1919 WW1 (Mesopotamia 1915-1918, Persia 1918, Mesopotamia 1919)

1919-1920 England (Tidworth, providing a draft of 378 enlisted men for the 20th Hussars)

1920-1922 Germany (Cologne, Düsseldorf, Silesia)

1922 England

The 20th Hussars went to France in 1914 with 24 officers (+ MO and Veterinary Officer) and 519 OR (I have seen war establishment figures amounting to 26 officers and 523 OR).

(Sources: The Ramnuggur Boys 14th/20th King's Hussars 1715-1992, John Pharo-Tomlin + own notes and collections)

/Jonas

[farrar]

After having raided the book-shelves again, I also took a look at some old notes, which yielded some more information on the 20th Hussars, as well as the 14th Hussars (which seems to be of some relevance for the topic at hand):

20th Hussars postings;

-1896 England (last station Colchester)

1896-1902 India (Mhow)

(1901-1902 South Africa)

1903 Egypt (Abbasia Barracks, Cairo)

1904-1906 England (Brighton, det. in Canterbury)

1906-1908 England (Shorncliffe Camp, relieving 14th Hussars and providing a draft of 72 enlisted men for them)

1908-1911 Ireland (The Curragh)

1911-1914 England (Colchester)

1914-1919 WW1 (Western Front only)

1919 England

1919 Egypt

1920 Turkey

1920-1922 Egypt (?)

1922 England

14th Hussars postings;

1903-1904 England (Aldershot)

1904-1906 England (Shorncliff Camp)

1906-1911 India (Bangalore)

1911-1914 India (Mhow)

1914-1915 India (Meerut)

1915-1919 WW1 (Mesopotamia 1915-1918, Persia 1918, Mesopotamia 1919)

1919-1920 England (Tidworth, providing a draft of 378 enlisted men for the 20th Hussars)

1920-1922 Germany (Cologne, Düsseldorf, Silesia)

1922 England

The 20th Hussars went to France in 1914 with 24 officers (+ MO and Veterinary Officer) and 519 OR (I have seen war establishment figures amounting to 26 officers and 523 OR).

(Sources: The Ramnuggur Boys 14th/20th King's Hussars 1715-1992, John Pharo-Tomlin + own notes and collections)

/Jonas

Thank you for this it is extremely informative. I will re-investigate my grandfather's records because your information points to him being transferred to the14th Hussars sometime between 1906 and 1910 and then joining his new regiment in India. In 1906 he was promoted to sergeant cook so quite why they would transfer a cook all the way to india seems odd, Intriguing!

[GRA]

Hello Farrar!

I'm not saying that he transferred out of the regiment, but by your story and the postings of the 20th Hussars, it's plausible. You might want to post your grandfather's personal information here, as there are several forum members who might help you looking into the registers. It seems like you have an interesting story to unveil!

/Jonas

[farrar]

Hello Farrar!

I'm not saying that he transferred out of the regiment, but by your story and the postings of the 20th Hussars, it's plausible. You might want to post your grandfather's personal information here, as there are several forum members who might help you looking into the registers. It seems like you have an interesting story to unveil!

/Jonas

My grandfather was Charles Rush. He was the son of an irish agriculture worker and was born in 1876 in Howden Yorkshire. He joined the army in 1896 in the Corps of the Hussars of the line, 10th Hussars. In 1898 he transferred to 20th Hussars and was posted to India.

He was sent to south Africa with 20 Hussars where he as caught up in the siege of Mafeking. One of his favourite stories told to his grandchildren, was how he saved the army in Mafeking by making jam sandwiches for the troops.(apparently there was plenty of fruit available for the jam and wheat to make bread, but not much other food available) like I said Grandfather could embellish a good story.

He then went to Egypt in 1903 and back to UK in 1904.In 1910 he went back to India where he served until 1915 with, I am now pretty sure, 14th Hussars. (we have found a document which appears to say he transferred in 1910 but does not say from which company or to which company but he was still a Hussar). In 1915 he was taken severely ill in Mesopotamia and retired from the army in 1916 after 21 years service.

In terms of service record he received 5 medals. Unfortunately the medals were sold in the late 1950s. He was promoted to corporal in 1900 and to sergeant in 1905. He was made sergeant cook in 1906 which was his position for the remainder of his service.

Another true story was how he met and marries his wife. She was the daughter of Edward Hills a soldier (a bit of a rogue) who served in Cyprus. Which is where Cecilia was born. Charles first met Cecilia in Cyprus in 1898/9 while he was traveling to his posting in India. There was no contact again until 1910 in Cyprus, when Charles was again travelling to his new posting in India. He went on to India alone and Cecilia, a few months later, decided to follow him. She travelled to India and eventually found him in 1911. They married in Bangalore in early 1912 and had two sons one in 1912 and one in 1914 both born in India and a daughter born after they returned to UK. Of course they lived happily ever after. (Charles died in 1955 and Cecilia died 10 years later).

[leigh kitchen]

A possibilty, 14th Hussars & Corps of Hussars........

14th Hussars were India, Mesopotamia 14/11/1915.

His medals should have 14th Hussars as the unit on them.

Edited May 30, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[farrar]

A possibilty, 14th Hussars & Corps of Hussars........

14th Hussars were India, Mesopotamia 14/11/1915.

His medals should have 14th Hussars as the unit on them.

This is good evidence, as the regimental number on this document, matches one which is on his enlistment document in 10th Hussars and on one of the documents when he was in 20th Hussars. This also seems to tie up with other evidence provided on this site.

Unfortunately we do not have his medals anymore ( I am told he had 5) as they were sold in the late 1950s after his death.

The medals we know about were

Long service

Good conduct

South Africa (QSA I think)

I do not know what the other two were, can anyone help with this?

I also cannot find any details of his 'best rifle shot in India' medal, which was probably best rifle shot in the british army in India. Can anyone help with this please?

What a great site this is.

Farrar

[leigh kitchen]

Looks like his medals will be

Queen's South Africa Medal(?),

1915 Star,

British War Medal,

Victory Medal,

Army Long Service & Good Conduct (it's all one medal).

(The Medal Index Card refers to his entitlement to the three WWI medals).

Medal Rolls for his regiment will show which Boer War medals he was entitled to, The regimental museum may have records, if only regimental journals, which refer to his shooting prizes.

His service papers may survive, I have'nt found service or penson papers re. WWI service.

[leigh kitchen]

1891 England Census shows:

Name: Charles Rush

Age: 15

Estimated birth year: abt 1876

Relation: Servant

Gender: Male

Where born: Howden, Yorkshire, England

Address; Prickett Hill

Civil parish: Wressell

Ecclesiastical parish: Wressell

Town: Newsholme

County/Island: Yorkshire

Registration district: Howden

Sub-registration district: Howden

Household Members: Name Age

Thomas Hatfield 34

Ellen Hatfield 30

Albert Harrison 19 (servant)

Charles Rush 15 (servant)

Son of Edward Rush & Mary McGinn, husband of Cecilia Alice Hills? Died in 1955?

Possible his Grandfather was Charles Rush of Howden died 1872?

Could be........

Photo of Charles Rush with wife Cecilia:

Edited May 30, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

Hopefully this gentleman in the photo of 14th Hussars, Bangalore, India, 1912?

Just the one medal ribbon worn, I think, & I think it's the QSA.

Edited May 30, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[leigh kitchen]

14th Hussars amalgamated to form 14th/20th Hussars on 1/10/1920 by the way, perhaps this is causing confusion re. the 14th Hussars / 20th Hussars issue?

[farrar]

1891 England Census shows:

Name: Charles Rush

Age: 15

Estimated birth year: abt 1876

Relation: Servant

Gender: Male

Where born: Howden, Yorkshire, England

Address; Prickett Hill

Civil parish: Wressell

Ecclesiastical parish: Wressell

Town: Newsholme

County/Island: Yorkshire

Registration district: Howden

Sub-registration district: Howden

Household Members: Name Age

Thomas Hatfield 34

Ellen Hatfield 30

Albert Harrison 19 (servant)

Charles Rush 15 (servant)

Son of Edward Rush & Mary McGinn, husband of Cecilia Alice Hills? Died in 1955?

Possible his Grandfather was Charles Rush of Howden died 1872?

Could be........

Photo of Charles Rush with wife Cecilia:

his grandfather was Mark Rush who lived in Ireland, no records on him at all but he is listed on the Edward rush Marriage certificate.

The other stuff and the photo...WOW!! thank you

[farrar]

Hopefully this gentleman in the photo of 14th Hussars, Bangalore, India, 1912?

Just the one medal ribbon worn, I think, & I think it's the QSA.

The photos are probably him, I always remember him as a grey haired old man. I only have one photo of him after he left the army and about 70 years old but the picture is similar. I will check with my aunt (his daughter, she is 94 but is the only living relative) this will test her memory!!!

Thanks ever so much for this it is fantastic

[leigh kitchen]

There's more in the way of photos, I will email you.

Any resemblance to your photo aged 70?

Was there another Charles Rush, possibly a son or nephew of your grandfather, who was a Staff Sergeant Artificer in The Royal Army Ordnance Corps?

Edited May 30, 2010 by leigh kitchen

[farrar]

There's more in the way of photos, I will email you.

Any resemblance to your photo aged 70?

Was there another Charles Rush, possibly a son or nephew of your grandfather, who was a Staff Sergeant Artificer in The Royal Army Ordnance Corps?

1 The photo on the right is identical to the on I have got.

Charles rush has two sons and a Daughter. The eldest son was Charles born in 1912 He went to an Army school near Newport and joined the Army . He eventually became a fairly senior officer, I would need to check what rank he finally reached but it was at least Major, I think it was higher.

George Gerald also went to the Army school near Chepstow. He joined Royal Engineers and served in Egypt before WWII. He was captured in 1940 destroying roads and bridges to cover the evacuation from Dunkirk He was held prisoner in Poland stalag VIIIB. He resigned from the army in 1945

[leigh kitchen]

George Gerald Rush you refer to?

Name: G. G. B. Rush

Rank: Sapper

Army Number: 1868924

Regiment: Royal Engineers

POW Number: 12037

Camp Type: Stalag

Camp Number: 344

Camp Location: Lambinowice, Poland

Record Office: Royal Engineers Record Office, Ditchling Road, Brighton, Sussex

Record Office Number: 9

[leigh kitchen]

You mention "the army school near Chepstow - I had considered The Army Apprentice School as the collar badge worn by the soldier in post no. 18, but thought RAOC was a closer match - however The Army Apprentice School, formed 1947, was at Chepstow, so depending on that collar badge we could be looking at either of your grandfather's two sons, Charles or George?

Of course, he may be neither.......

[farrar]

George Gerald Rush you refer to?

Name: G. G. B. Rush

Rank: Sapper

Army Number: 1868924

Regiment: Royal Engineers

POW Number: 12037

Camp Type: Stalag

Camp Number: 344

Camp Location: Lambinowice, Poland

Record Office: Royal Engineers Record Office, Ditchling Road, Brighton, Sussex

Record Office Number: 9

That's my dad. The years as a POW nearly killed him. His daily diet for 5 years was a small bowl of rice and a piece of bead with two or three cups of water. He was on a famous 1000 mile route march of prisoners from Poland into Germany, as a result, he suffered knee and back problems for the rest of his life. He told me that, on the march, if any prisoner fell over from exhaustion or any other reason , they were shot where they lay. It is very hard to imagine what these guys went through.

Regarding the RE records office, do they charge for the records and what sort of detail do they keep.

[leigh kitchen]

I think the reference to the RE office irelates to the records of the time, rather than now, but I don't know I'm afraid.

Your father Gerald & your uncle Charles at The Duke of Yorks Royal Miltary School & your uncle Charles (2nd row down, 2nd from right), same location.

It's interesting to see the boys wear the cap badge of their parent or ntended regiment or corps on the front of their tunics

[leigh kitchen]

Uncle Charles with other REME officers?

And in 1939:

[leigh kitchen]

Uncle Charles in Egypt, 1943?