Austria-Hungary Two Leopold orders in Gold

[Xtender]

Hello, are these two Leopold orders originals?

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_1.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_2.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_3.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_4.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_5.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_6.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_7.jpg

Thanks, Xt.

[Josef Rietveld]

Hello, are these two Leopold orders originals?

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_1.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_2.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_3.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_4.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_5.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_6.jpg

http://007.007.sweb.cz/Military/Leopold_7.jpg

Thanks, Xt.

IMHO the first one is ok, for the second one, the older issue i will ask another better informed collector for his opinion. personally i don't like it.

josef

[Josef Rietveld]

IMHO the first one is ok, for the second one, the older issue i will ask another better informed collector for his opinion. personally i don't like it.

josef

I see clearer now. The second, older, Leopold-Order is a copy produced by ROTHE in the 1960ties. The made small

series for collectors as General UHL and Fattovich. But this pieces have a tiny mistake.

The motto reverse should be Opes regum corda subditorum but they wrote instead Opes recum.

Also the Flinkierung (pattern beyond the enamel) is done to rough. This pieces are known in gilded bronze aswell as in real Gold.

regards

josef

[Xtender]

Hello Josef, thanks for (not good) news

You have right the letter is not G but C.

Thanks, Xt.

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

just back home after a couple weeks of summer vacations, I see a discussion about the Leopold Order (perhaps my favourite order of the former A-H Monarchy).

Pity the pictures are not available anymore, otherwise I would have liked to see a Rothe-copy of an early cross.

The "RECUM" mistake occurs in any version of this order copied by the famous Viennese firm.

In the past, I've also seen a sure Rothe copy of a Leopold's Commander (FD); the reverse medallion was of the "REGUM" type. Perhaps, when the piece was mounted in the workshop, they used an original medallion...

In other words, the tiny mistake, correctly reported by Josef can be the sign of a copy, but let's never forget that the whole piece needs to be thoroughly inspected.

Best wishes,

E.L.

[Josef Rietveld]

Dear E.L,

the pics ARE availlable you just have to click the links in the openening thread

regards

josef

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

yes, the links work now, but a few minutes ago I was trying to open bat the link failed.

I agree with your opinion: the second Leopold is definitely a late Rothe copy "im Stil" of the early pieces with separate crown. Most possibly, the piece is in gold. I'm not sure, but this same piece should have been in auction some time ago.

Best wishes,

E.L.

[Elmar Lang]

Found it!

After a quick research, this same cross should be the one sold for Euro 1.500,- plus commission (estimate price Euro 200,-) at Künker's sale of Oct. 2nd 2009, lot 8660, there correctly described as a copy.

E.L.

[Josef Rietveld]

Found it!

After a quick research, this same cross should be the one sold for Euro 1.500,- plus commission (estimate price Euro 200,-) at Künker's sale of Oct. 2nd 2009, lot 8660, there correctly described as a copy.

E.L.

IMHO another Künker-Piece that was sold as an original

Ebay

KUENKER

josef

[Elmar Lang]

Very interesting: the eBay piece seems exactly the same sold at Künker's.

It seems that many collectors don't pay attention to room-based auctions (or catalogues) and feel more comfortable buying on eBay.

Dis-comfort comes later...

Enzo (E.L.)

Edited August 11, 2010 by Elmar Lang

[Yankee]

For all those who collect the Leopold order there is an excellent monograph on the 200th anniversary. The monograph is richly illustrated with many fine early examples (obverse & reverse) & the measurements too. They can be purchased directly from Mr Rochowanski in Vienna. Better to know exactly how the orginals should be before gambling on one at the next show. There is a 1969 Rothe sales catalog that has all the orders in gold. And if your wondering how you can tell the difference YOU CAN'T.

[Elmar Lang]

I fully agree with Yankee, the monography published on the occasion of the 200 years jubilee of the Lepold Order (also available via the Oesterreichische Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde ( www.ordenskunde.at ) is an excellent work.

Only I can't agree with the opinion that a gold Rothe copy can't have differences with an original.

Original pieces of Rothe are much, much better than the best post-1918 piece from the same firm.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

[Yankee]

I fully agree with Yankee, the monography published on the occasion of the 200 years jubilee of the Lepold Order (also available via the Oesterreichische Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde ( www.ordenskunde.at ) is an excellent work.

Only I can't agree with the opinion that a gold Rothe copy can't have differences with an original.

Original pieces of Rothe are much, much better than the best post-1918 piece from the same firm.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

Didn't know the site had a whole section on publications Enzo . That Maria Theresa exhibit catalog looks like a must. Luckily some of the publications can still be had

Sincerely

Brian

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

yes, all the still available publications can be ordered through the webpage of the OeGO. And all of them are very fine works indeed!

Among those not out-of-print, the "incontournables" are "Oesterreichs Orden" ; "Vergänglicher Glanz"; "Barock"; "Fortitudini - der Tapferkeit" and, of course, the monographies on the Maria Theresia Order, the Leopold Order and that on Erzherzog Johann and his orders & decorations.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang