John Liddle DFC (British DFC and American DFC) Massive grouping!

[Adam J]

Hello Everyone

I feel that this is one of the most historically important groupings I have ever owned. The man in question John Liddle DFC was a Mosquito pilot with 109 Pathfinder Squadron.

One thing to make clear from the start is that he won the American DFC (reason will be explained). On his uniform which is his Pilot officer uniform is the ribbon for the British DFC, with the grouping is his miniature British DFC and a length of full size ribbon. The problem I had with this was that after viewing the group I went to do some research, there is a mention of John being awarded the American DFC in the London Gazette, and I have the telegram awarding him it and some newspaper clippings. There is no mention of him having been awarded the British DFC during war time. This left me feeling confused for a number of reasons. Did he lie?.

1. His uniform and all his belongings had been packed away for years in the attic, the smell confirmed it. His son and his son’s wife had no idea about ribbons or medals. They knew he was John Liddle DFC as he was very active in the local area and in the newspaper fairly often. I honestly don’t feel they had added a ribbon; they all have the same amount of wear on them and fitted in the same fashion. The son knew how much a full size DFC was worth as he had seen it on the antique road show. He thinks that the full size DFC was stolen by a family member, I did tell him that together the DFC and everything was worth considerably more, so don’t split the group by selling it to me, keep everything together. So I don’t feel anything has been messed with.

2. He was very active post war, owned a pub, and ran 2 businesses. Always referred to himself as John Liddle DFC. He could obviously use that tile for the American medal but it could raise a few eyebrows especially among other pilots? Maybe?

3. He was very active in veteran organisations, RAF association, Pathfinder association, Caterpillar club, GQ Club. Why would he wear British DFC Mini and put one on his uniform if it wasn’t warranted. He could easily have been called on it by any number of people who were on his squadron and people he meet during his service. He could easily have been caught out.

But still the issue of no mention in the London Gazette, or in the book “the Distinguished Flying Cross and how it was won”. I had to go a little further.

1. Contacted his navigator, who had sadly died. I emailed his son. His navigator Albert Smith and his family where in no doubt that John won a British DFC. Still not paper evidence. Help!

Went back to the son to go through the mounds of paper work, no document or paper work saying he won it. Nearly started to pull me hair out! Then found something!

Success

The London Gazette lists the awarding of the American DFC in June 1946, he received it while in hospital during the period 24.6.1946 to 16.7.1946. I actually have the “General orders – restricted headquarters united state air force in Europe” paper work dated 4 April 1946 which is recommending him and others for the award. So no mention of him winning or being awarded the American DFC before April 1946, as that when the ball started rolling.

He had to bail out (story later) on 4th December 1944. He was awarded the GQ badge and certificate on 25th January 1945. The GQ Company produced parachutes and he used a GQ parachute to bail out, he was recipient 381. On the document is written “ No 182251, Pilot Officer J. Liddle. DFC. RAF” awarded this day 25th January 1945. A full 15 months before even any mention of the American DFC!!!!!!. I feel this proves that he was awarded the British DFC. Now the reason that maybe this has been missed and not printed in the London Gazette was that he was only on operational duties from September 1944 to February 1945. He was posted missing 4th December 1944 and in his diary notes “My documents had been sent to Gloucester records where they were misplaced so I was technically missing until Feb 1945”. He actually went back on 3 operations while listed as missing!!!!!!.. I think he was presented with the British DFC but it wasn’t officially announced. RAF records service for you!!!!

John Liddle in his own words.

Born 1922 last of five (mistake)? Two brothers, two sisters, Father Master Decorator to 1st World War, survived war in army. Started motor garage after war, mother teacher. I first flew aged about six, sitting on the lap of mechanic. Then I knew flying was for me.

Passed scholarship to high school then to Acklam Hall. Passed RAF entrance exam 1937, reported to Halton and was turned down on dental grounds.

No work in the northeast, got a job in an aircraft factory on Isle of weight 300 miles from home, a long way in those days. Returned home on outbreak of war.

Turned down twice more by RAF on dental grounds again. Then in 1940 RAF allowed full dentures and I was in A.C.R.C. Lords, Torquay, Terrell Texas and back to A.F.U Grantham.

Through Oxfords, Blenheims and wellingtons to Mosquito’s.

Posted to Pathfinders training unit where I met my wife to be, Waff at Warboys. Then to 109 Squadron at Little Staughton.

Towards the end of November 1944 I was flying mark 9 on a long op, the starboard drop tank pump failed, after several switching’s with no joy I decided to jettison drop tanks to reduce drag and give more range home. Over North Sea called our emergency service (Darkie) they Q.D.M’d me to Woodridge where I landed on F.I.D.O. with only 12 gallons of fuel left!

In next op, same aircraft, starboard engine quit at 600 feet on approach. I sacrificed height for speed and after lots of wheels up wheels down, feather Staboard the un Feather, crossed first boundary fence at about 110 knots and so did not touch down till halfway along runway, brakes faded and we tipped plane into the far hedge. (got out and ran)

(Twenty years on, wife and I visited Little Staughton, still in use as internal charter flying club. Half way round Perry track me man in rover car. Security stopped to exchange pleasantries and he informed us a 109 squadron aircraft had gone through the hedge. I had to own up, but then took him to Chequers, the local tavern for a pint)

Next trip same plane Dec 4th 1944 took off 18.15 to Mark Karlsruhe. My reserve took off 30 seconds after me. We were just looking at artillery shell flashes in the front line when suddenly I had no Rudder or Elevator controls. My aircraft turned over and went into an inverted spin. My reserve had rested his bomb bay on my fin and snapped my tail off. These new Zealanders never look where they are going! Panic! I’ll say but we got out through top escape hatch, decided we did not like 9. I landed near a farm house, was folding my parachute, ready to bury it, when I heard a lorry start up and faint voices. I ran across the field straight into a barbed wire fence.

Settled down then made my way, by collar stud compass, westerly. A mile or so covered when I heard American voices in the village of Breinig, 12 miles south of Aaken, joined them, stayed the night, us jeep to Viviere, RAF Jeep to Brussels and had St Nicholas night there.

Back to 109 squadron by Dakota and Mosquito. My documents had been sent to Gloucester records where they were misplaced so I was “missing” until Feb 1945. No money, no nothing but a good bank manager and squadron fed and watered me.

I did three more with navigators whose pilots were sick or injured. Then back to Warboys as ground instructor and test pilot to end of the war. Damaged right army and was grounded.

Had another motor bike accident and had a stay in RAF hospital Northallerton. Wife came to visit, brought mail and small parcel. Undid parcel and was delighted to find an American DFC with covering letter saying I had missed the presentation because of difficulty locating me.

The grouping

He kept a lot of items from his service. His log books from first flight to last flight. His pilot officers uniform, Flying jacket, trousers and boots with knife still in. Some of his medal, a lot of books / manuals, books from his time in America training, post war member ship books to various organisations to do with the RAF. Caterpillar club citation and caterpillar badge engraved, QG club Citation and badge dated and engraved. Two path finder badges with preliminary wear document and permanent wear document. Cap insignia, extra RAF wings pictures and other documentation. Pieces of the mosquito that he crashed in and his father’s 1st world war trio and some insignia. I have also got a lot of post war documents and correspondents with his Navigator and various other squadron mates. Plus a other documents I need to go through.

I have a lot of pictures. I will post more if any one wants to see anything closer in particular

[Adam J]

British DFC must have definitely been awarded on or before 25th January 1945, 15 months before first mention of American DFC

[Adam J]

First mention of American DFC signed by Lt col F.H. Monahan 4.4.1946

[Adam J]

[Hugh]

Great story; thanks for posting it. Just demonstrates the unparalleled ability of bureaucracies to lose anything - even people. Our greatest fear was always that they would lose our pay record.

Hugh

[Mervyn Mitton]

A fascinating story and I admire your tenacity in sorting it all out. However, well worth the effort and such a pity that his UK D.F.C. is missing.With the proof that you have, I would have thought it worth contacting the Ministry to at least have written confirmation of the award.

Over the years I have seen many old trunks with full sets of uniforms and equipment stored away in them and forgotten - this set though is important. There can't be that many full flying suits outside of museums ?

Thankyou for making the post and I for one, would like to see more close-ups of the medals and the flying suit. Mervyn

[gongz]

Call me a sceptic (I've been called worse !), but it seems the only "proof" you have of a British DFC being awarded is the GQ certificate and the copy of the American memorandum.

The hand written wording on the GC certificate looks suspicious to me. I would not have expected to find a full stop after the word "Liddle" - I would have expected a comma.

The lettering of the "D.F.C." is of a different thickness to all other lettering.

All of the lettering "D.F.C. R.A.F." slopes to the right. All other lettering is vertical.

My nasty suspicious mind thinks the "D.F.C. R.A.F." words have been added to the original certificate. After noting the mistake with the "D.F.C." the "R.A.F." style was corrected.

The American memorandum copy in all likelihood was supplied to Liddle AFTER being gazetted. It is doubtful that it would be supplied to an award recipient before being officially being confirmed by British authorities in the Gazette.

None of the Gazette entries I could find show the award of a British DFC, with either of his two service numbers.

I doubt the missing records theory - everything else is gazetted properly.

And......to me the most telling.....in his own words he seems to mention all the high points of his RAF flying career BUT - no mention of a British DFC.

Just my thoughts - hope I'm wrong.

Rgds

Graeme

[Adam J]

Call me a sceptic (I've been called worse !), but it seems the only "proof" you have of a British DFC being awarded is the GQ certificate and the copy of the American memorandum.

The hand written wording on the GC certificate looks suspicious to me. I would not have expected to find a full stop after the word "Liddle" - I would have expected a comma.

The lettering of the "D.F.C." is of a different thickness to all other lettering.

All of the lettering "D.F.C. R.A.F." slopes to the right. All other lettering is vertical.

My nasty suspicious mind thinks the "D.F.C. R.A.F." words have been added to the original certificate. After noting the mistake with the "D.F.C." the "R.A.F." style was corrected.

The American memorandum copy in all likelihood was supplied to Liddle AFTER being gazetted. It is doubtful that it would be supplied to an award recipient before being officially being confirmed by British authorities in the Gazette.

None of the Gazette entries I could find show the award of a British DFC, with either of his two service numbers.

I doubt the missing records theory - everything else is gazetted properly.

And......to me the most telling.....in his own words he seems to mention all the high points of his RAF flying career BUT - no mention of a British DFC.

Just my thoughts - hope I'm wrong.

Rgds

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

The picture frame that contains the GQ document is at an angle, if you look at the bottom of the words you will see a straight line running underneath them!, so the DFC doesn't slope towards the right. The style of writing is the same, no difference in thickness at all apart from the "A" in RAF, but that is just the style of calligraphy that was used. With reagrds to the DFC, yes of course he may not have got it and of course he could have added it to his uniform. The GQ document is the only thing that links a Brit DFC, but the thing is his Navigator used to stay with him as did his old C/O ( all noted in his diary enteres and letters sent between them during the years) plus he was a member of the path finders club, RAF association, traveled around the world for reunions and was very public with the fact he got a DFC in business and in the local section of the conservative party, ralley club and cricket club. Aswell as his car garage and Pub. So many chances for him to be caught out if he was lying. I still think this group is great no matter what, a piece of ribbon on the unifrom takes nothing away from his achievements and services. His serivces with 109 squadron stands on its own. I feel he did get it but that is just my opinion, hes was listed as missing from Dec to Feb but returned to flying in Jan and actually did 2 or 3 op's while still listed as missing!!!!. RAF records for you!

Cheers Adam