usairforce Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 I want buy it but i don't know this is real or fake ?
IrishGunner Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 Very interesting piece; I suppose for the August 1991 coup attempt which finally brought the collapse of the USSR. Even if it isn't genuine and if it wasn't too much $, I'd snag it simply as a curiosity piece. And if you find reference to it as an official medal, all the better then... I will keep my eyes open for such a piece, but haven't see anything like it; the St. George reverse is certainly eye-catching.
tsarenko1975 Posted September 16, 2010 Posted September 16, 2010 Hi, Gents! It's FAKE! Real medal is silver.
TacHel Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 (edited) Hi, Gents! It's FAKE! Real medal is silver. Correction... The real medals are brass (tombac) and then receive a dull silver finish. I have a silvered one and a brass colored one like this one that was authenticated as genuine by a plethora of Russian collectors. A large number of these medals were stolen from the Moscow "Victory" mint prior to getting their silver finish. You will find a great many of them on the market. This could very well be a genuine article stolen prior to finishing. The medal itself looks fine, the suspension ring is a bit iffy but heh... Edited September 17, 2010 by TacHel
usairforce Posted September 17, 2010 Author Posted September 17, 2010 Correction... The real medals are brass (tombac) and then receive a dull silver finish. I have a silvered one and a brass colored one like this one that was authenticated as genuine by a plethora of Russian collectors. A large number of these medals were stolen from the Moscow "Victory" mint prior to getting their silver finish. You will find a great many of them on the market. This could very well be a genuine article stolen prior to finishing. The medal itself looks fine, the suspension ring is a bit iffy but heh... your mean this is a rare?
IrishGunner Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Hmm. Given the outrageous price on eBay and the speculation of "real" or "fake" or "stolen" - I'd steer clear even though I think it's an interesting piece. Too many warning flags at this point.
Christophe Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Hi to all, I am not actually with my doc, but I can remember real ones are numbered... I must have one somewhere, and remember having seen some numbered, in Museums... Just my 2 cents... Cheers. Ch. PS : I have seen fakes ones numbered in Izmailovo market (Moscow).
TacHel Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 your mean this is a rare? Not really... Almost as many unfinished medals were stolen than actually bestowed... :rolleyes:
TacHel Posted September 17, 2010 Posted September 17, 2010 Hi to all, I am not actually with my doc, but I can remember real ones are numbered... I must have one somewhere, and remember having seen some numbered, in Museums... Just my 2 cents... Cheers. Ch. PS : I have seen fakes ones numbered in Izmailovo market (Moscow). Correct. They are numbered, etched on the reverse. Where circle is on picture below. But they are only numbered once finished (silvered) and bestowed. One way of checking if a silvered medal is real is to look at the etched number on the reverse, you should see the yellow brass underneath the silver finish. Repros are usually made of cheaper material, it's a dead giveaway. If the asked price is more than $25 to $50, pass! Even if genuine, it'll take 100 years before it becomes anything more than an interesting conversation piece.
IrishGunner Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 If the asked price is more than $25 to $50, pass! That's what I was thinking too Frank; and I'd only pay that now if I was certain it was a genuine numbered silvered issue. Thanks for all your insights to this piece - great learning experience.
TacHel Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 Should you find a genuine article, silvered with a serial number... Expect to pay multi hundred (US) dollars. I often browse Russian auction sites, they go from between $250 and $900 depending on the number on the reverse. Look for crispness in the detailing, the silver finish is dull and incredibly thin, any wear not accompanied by visible uncovered tombac (yellow brass) should be treated as suspect. Contrary to plating/dipping, the thinness of the silvering doesn't bring down the detailing. Also, as previously mentioned, the etching of the serial number on the reverse will uncover that same yellow brass, if the etched number doesn't show brass at the bottom of the etching grooves, pass on it. WARNING: if you see one for sale on eBay with the number 32, pass... The seller's already sold about 15 of them with that number. Unfortunately, in the quest for easy money in a still growing market... Russians are producing copies of the rarer awards at an incredible rate and in ever increasing quality. It's getting quite difficult at times to tell the difference. One particular maker was fined and then closed by the government for producing high quality copies of modern Russian Orders. They hadn't won the contract and didn't care because they were making more money selling to the general public than to the government. Only a VERY CLOSE examination of the maker's mark, enamel type (hot or cold) and tones could lead you to the truth... IF you knew what to look for.
IrishGunner Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 Frank, another reason I'm content to stay away from the high-end Soviet orders. About the only thing above the common jubilee medals et al that I'm interested in now is a WW2-era OGPW. Everything else I will leave for you more knowledgeable and wealthy Soviet experts. :whistle:
TacHel Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 (edited) Another thing I learned from visiting many Russian phaleristics forums... Very few people who received it still wear it. There seems to be a strange illness/fate/stigma associated with this particular medal. People awarded it have been dying in droves since the mid 90s... Illness, weird accidents etc... They even talk of a curse! Don't you just love Russian folklore? Oh and BTW, the medal is hung backwards on the picture. St George slaying the dragon is the obverse. Edited September 18, 2010 by TacHel
IrishGunner Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 (edited) One thing I've learned about Russian folklore after living in this part of the world for some time - and after drinking a lot of vodka with Russians. Much of folklore isn't "lore" Oh and BTW, the medal is hung backwards on the picture. St George slaying the dragon is the obverse. You know, I wondered about that...I would have thought old St George would have merited the obverse. Edited September 18, 2010 by IrishGunner
TacHel Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 One thing I've learned about Russian folklore after living in this part of the world for some time - and after drinking a lot of vodka with Russians. Much of folklore isn't "lore" I didn't dare mention it, but I hear you... When you see some of the things happening there... The way the FSB (ex KGB) rebuilt itself under Putin after being dismantled and decentralized under Yeltsin... Just Google stories in Russian on line papers on how FAPSI was squashed and sucked back into the FSB... Gave me goose bumps! Worthy of a Tom Clancy novel! The cherry on the sundae, as far as the story goes (cursed medal), was when general Lebed's plane crashed for no apparent reason.
IrishGunner Posted September 18, 2010 Posted September 18, 2010 general Lebed's plane crashed for no apparent reason. Lebed's helicopter crashing for "no apparent reason" - OH now that's exactly what I mean by folklore. "No apparent reason" - yea, right. :whistle:
Gaffken Posted September 19, 2010 Posted September 19, 2010 Frank, Any idea how many were officially awarded, and what the exact criteria was? I'm also kind of curious if there was a similar medal struck for the '93 coup, now that I see the White House on this medal... Gaffken
Christophe Posted September 19, 2010 Posted September 19, 2010 I'm also kind of curious if there was a similar medal struck for the '93 coup, now that I see the White House on this medal... Gaffken Hi Gaffken, What do you mean with this "'93 coup" ? Cheers. Ch.
TacHel Posted September 19, 2010 Posted September 19, 2010 Frank, Any idea how many were officially awarded, and what the exact criteria was? I'm also kind of curious if there was a similar medal struck for the '93 coup, now that I see the White House on this medal... Gaffken All info on award criteria can be found here: http://award.adm.gov.ru/medal/medal_9.htm '93 coup? What '93 coup? It happened in '91... The medals were struck in 92.
Gaffken Posted September 20, 2010 Posted September 20, 2010 What do you mean with this "'93 coup" ? ...or 'attempted coup', I probably should say, since it failed. Basically, the September '93 incident that involved the shelling of the White House by the 2nd GMRD and other Moscow area units:
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