Please check my Kites !

[Josef Rietveld]

Dear Clubmembers, although i'am focused on Austrian-Hungarian and ottoman decorations i always admired the craftmanship of japanese ODM's.

So i built up a small collection over the past four years. Please have a look at my Golden Kites and tell me if my dating is correct:

Left: Early Meiji 7th Class

Right: Meiji/Taisho 7th Class

thanks in advance

Josef

[Josef Rietveld]

2nd Try:

Left: Golden Kite 7th Class Taisho

Right: Golden Kite 7th Class Showa

I'am not sure abbout the Taisho (2nd feather longest, two swordhangers but roundals don't touch the banner)

BTW A Big Thanks to Paul Murphy

josef

Edited March 31, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Josef Rietveld]

all of them

[Josef Rietveld]

Finally my Golden Kite 6th Class (no box, came in wrapped paper) IMHO a clear Showa-piece

josef

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Josef,

A very nice collection, thanks for sharing them with us.

Regards

Brian

[Tim B]

Hi Josef,

I would agree with the dating in Post #2 but, aren't both Kites in Post #1 Meiji examples? Maybe its the angles and shadows in the PIC's.

Nice collection!

Tim

[drclaw]

Very nice collection Josef,

I've been collecting the Meiji 7th Class Kites too and certainly try to snap them up whenever I see them. The Meiji 6th is rarer so am still on the look out for one.

And they are beautiful pieces and I like how the design has been very gently refined over the years:

* the "uplifted" wings,

* two vs. three roundels near the sword hilts for a "cleaner" design, and

* more spacing near the top roundels on the bottom 'ribbons'.

All of which Paul points out in his very useful piece.

[Josef Rietveld]

Hi Josef,

I would agree with the dating in Post #2 but, aren't both Kites in Post #1 Meiji examples? Maybe its the angles and shadows in the PIC's.

Nice collection!

Tim

Gents, thanks for your comments.

@Tim

I'am not sure about that. I just checked them again. The roundels of left one in Post #1 touch the banner, but the right one shows the gap as later issued pieces - so i thought this could be a intermediate meiji/taisho-type.

You have to have sharp eyes when collecting golden kite 7 - not a game for old ladds

josef

Edited April 1, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Tim B]

Hi Josef,

Perhaps, but if you look at the lower set of roundels and compare your (L) Meiji to the two examples in post #2, you'll see the spacing is very similar, where as the one ® in post #1 shows these more closely spaced.

We don't know positively what die traits were indicative of each era unfortunately and this could be simply a case of different manufacturers. It would seem, if the design was changed to look different between eras, then the change would be more noticeable than just a small gap in one roundel. My thoughts anyway.

Tim :cheers:

[Josef Rietveld]

Hi Josef,

Perhaps, but if you look at the lower set of roundels and compare your (L) Meiji to the two examples in post #2, you'll see the spacing is very similar, where as the one ® in post #1 shows these more closely spaced.

We don't know positively what die traits were indicative of each era unfortunately and this could be simply a case of different manufacturers. It would seem, if the design was changed to look different between eras, then the change would be more noticeable than just a small gap in one roundel. My thoughts anyway.

Tim

Well, that is a point, so it seems that i have two meiji kites - could be worse

@drclaw

what is nowadays the price for a meiji kite 6th class? i read some of the threads in the japan-section and it seems they go pretty high on ebay.

josef

[Tim B]

Hi Josef,

Yes, could be worse. Considering you are not seeing these as often these days, any are better than none!

I'll have to check my Meiji Kites this weekend as I think I have either two different Meiji or Tashio 7th Class that have slightly different details to one another. Gives me a reason to rephotograph them which is something I have been putting off for a long time now.

Tim

[Josef Rietveld]

another question: does silver kanji indicate a wartime award? one of mei meiji-pieces has silver writing on the case AND a small rice-paper with other kanji-letters. Is someone able to read this (maybe a name or a unit)

thanks in advance

josef

@tim, that is a good idea, maybe we can work out some differences

Edited April 2, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Josef Rietveld]

maybe a more readable pic

[Tim B]

Hi Josef,

I believe the concensus is, that the silver lettered cases were wartime produced but I am not sure exactly "when" during the war it changed. Understand it was a cost savings measure. Paul would know more on that and probably be able to read that Kanji tape.

I've seen these tape labels on other items and have one on a 5th Class Sacred Treasure.

Tim

[Tim B]

Hi Josef,

Sorry I didn't get to these this weekend but, this head cold is really kicking my butt and in order for me to take some really detailed PIC's of these, I need to be in better shape. Guess I can't complain too much as this is the first time I've been sick in over a year but boy, it definately wears you out when you do catch it!

Anyway, I did manage to loop all my Kites and this is what I can see:

I only have one 6th and 7th Class Showa example and they appear to be identical to one another and match the one you have. One thing I notice is the bird's head is slightly tilted up on all examples. Here's a couple of mine and for now, the only ones I'll post.

Tim

[Tim B]

Of the two 7th Class Tashio examples I have, both appear very close to one another and the bird's head is not as tilted as they are on the Showa examples. However, I do note that one of my birds has an ever-so-slightly thinner neck than the other one.

On my two Meiji 7th Class examples, they also have variations in the way the bird's head is tilted, and if you look at your two examples in post #1, they also share this difference. One is clearly looking evenly to the left, while the other appears to be slightly tilted upward towards the left.

Also, though I cannot see your examples cleanly, check to see if the suspension "knob" is more elongated on the example where the bird (Kite) is looking evenly to the left. I think you'll see a noticeable difference in length. I'm talking about the point where the bird connects to the suspension ring.

So, I believe what we are seeing is differences in manufacturers, but I can't prove that at this point. Unfortunately, I do not have any that are maker marked.

Depending on how well I feel this week, I'll try to get some more PIC's up for you.

Tim