Rising Sun 4th Class Comparison

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I've had these two 4th Class orders for a few years now and wanted to show them off and ask what some thought of the one with the Meiji era case.

All comments welcome

First up is an example that is clearly Showa era in my opinion. The case, medal, and rosette are all correct by what we have come to consider the right details for a Showa era award.

Tim

[Tim B]

Inside the case: Note the rosette is pleated, correct for the 4th Class

[Tim B]

And, the front/back of the medal:

There are no maker's marks on the medal or suspension ring that I could find.

[Tim B]

Here's my 2nd example: Note the Meiji era case.

[Tim B]

Again, inside the case, which has a more darker blue (almost black) interior than the previous Showa example with the common reddish-purple.

Also note, the rosette; though of an earlier style with the thinner lines, is incorrect for a 4th Class award. IMO, this is probably for a 5th Class Rising Sun (Meiji era). This is where hopefully Rich can find out more information on these in his upcoming quest.

[Tim B]

Front & back:

[Tim B]

Sorry, my pics stink as I am fighting a cold this weekend and it's wiping me out!

This one is marked with the letter "M" on the left suspension arm (looking from the front) between the paulina leaves and the sunburst. Assume the "M" is still indicative of the Osaka Mint.

[Tim B]

Last shot shows a front comparison of the two.

Now, my questions center around what we have to come to believe when looking at the lines in the paulina leaves.

These two are near identical and a real Meiji era award would have the outer lines extending further down than those of the Showa period examples. But, could it be just a case of different manufacturers and the lines really don't make a difference? I honestly do not know and hopefully this is another area that Rich can dig into during his research.

If we find out that we can't base the period of awards on these lines, that could really open up the possibility of many of these ODM's were seeing for sale, not made up as we currently suspect but, just coming from different sources.

Kind of why I quit collecting these until more definitive answers came out.

Thoughts?

Tim

[Josef Rietveld]

@Tim beautifull pieces you are showing. Unfortunately i'am just a novice to collection japanese ODM's and have only questions not answers.

So I see the point but have no idea what could be the correct exegesis of this facts. I can show you my only (unboxed) RSO4 but i'am afraid that is the only contribution i can give.

Could it be so easy that someone put a showa-piece in a meiji-case - not really or?

josef

Edited April 3, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Tim B]

Hi Josef!

No problems and please post your 4th Class when you can. I actually started this thread, somewhat based on your recent Kite questions, to see if more examples might come forward and we might be able to discern some more concrete evidence one way or the other.

Yes, of course, entirely possible that this is simply another case of mis-matching sets in order to sell an item as complete. Honestly, this is my current thought on the example with the Meiji case but, I would like to pursue the possibility for the sake of discussion. Truth is, there is not a lot of good, referenced material out there that really gets into the details that we see in other countries but, you never know what might develop.

I would love to see another example that has the outer lines extending down further and marked with this letter "M". That would indicate to me it was not just a manufacturer's difference.

Tim :cheers:

[Josef Rietveld]

I found no makers mark on my RSO4 and just recognised angrily that it seems that somebody refixed the pauwlonia-suspension to the order.

Anyway here are my pictures, again sorry cause i'am limited here to 110 K

josef

[Josef Rietveld]

reverse

[Tim B]

Very nice Josef!

Another Showa era example IMO.

I have seen some of these oders where the suspension arms are bent slightly and not sure if they got damaged with wear over time or what exactly. Your example does not show any outward signs of damage or repair, so I wouldn't be too worried here. Looks very nice IMO!

Sometimes you can find empty cases for sale on eBay if you are ever interested in adding one to it.

Tim :beer:

[Josef Rietveld]

.......Sometimes you can find empty cases for sale on eBay if you are ever interested in adding one to it.

Tim

Of course i want such kind of marriage. i already tried it with another RSO-set i will present in a seperate thread.

josef

Edited April 5, 2011 by Josef Rietveld

[Dieter3]

Again, inside the case, which has a more darker blue (almost black) interior than the previous Showa example with the common reddish-purple.

Also note, the rosette; though of an earlier style with the thinner lines, is incorrect for a 4th Class award. IMO, this is probably for a 5th Class Rising Sun (Meiji era). This is where hopefully Rich can find out more information on these in his upcoming quest.

Tim, not so sure about that! Yes, you'd think the rosette was not correct by virtue on the rays, but I have seen many of these earlier 4th Class awards with that very same rosette. I found this puzzling too, but perhaps it is indeed correct. Just by observation only, the pleated ones came about at a later period, though I'm not exactly sure when.

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter!

Thanks for that, as I too have seen most of these Meiji era sets with this type of rosette. I tried to ask about this very topic sometime back but, it never seems to get the right people responding. It's like its some big secret or something.

Anyway, lots of areas that need to be opened and explored and hopefully Rich can shed some light in this area in days to come as his research continues!

I would really like to see this 4th class set be correct and complete in the end, that would be awesome! Still, we need to get to the bottom on the different variations and if the lines in the paulina leaves are truly indicative or not.

We'll get there eventually!

Tim

[Tim B]

Just an update of sorts here.

I am trying to lock down some more information on these rosettes and have been told that the rosette shown above in the Meiji case is of the correct style for that period 3rd/4th Class awards.

I don't have an actual reference source yet but, was told that the regulations stipulated the rosette for the 1st/2nd Class; 3rd/4th Class, 5th/6th Class, and the 7th/8th Class shared the same rosette/lapel device until a later date when each award level was given its own unique pattern rosette.

Will try to find out more.

Tim

[Tim B]

Specifically, what I was told by another very knowledgeable Japanese collector:

"That rosette was common to the 3rd and 4th class Suns as prescribed by the regulations issued in Dec 1877. It was only from 30th March 1935 that each class got its distictive rosette. Until then, the same rosette was shared between 2 classes, 1st & 2nd, 3rd & 4th, 5th & 6th , 7th & 8th."

I have asked if there was a specific reference that called this out or possibly showed the different styles, so hopefully more information is forthcoming.

Tim

[Dieter3]

Hi Tim,

Though I can't speak for the dates when changes occurred, the photos I've collected of at least what appear to be earlier awards definitely bear this pairing of rosettes out! The information would seem to be accurate!

Edited April 11, 2011 by Dieter3

[Tim B]

Hi Dieter,

PM sent on this issue.

Tim

[Tim B]

I want to add some information on the rosettes here and must first thank another collector, Nick Komiya, for providing this information that he shared with me on another forum. With his permission to include it here...

I had previously asked Nick if there were any specific references that spelled out exactly what rosettes were used and how the styles might have changed over time. This is what he came back with:

Part of the documentation instituting the Order of the Chrysanthemum dated 25th Dec. 1877, Daijo-kan release no. 97. Here is the official illustration.

[Tim B]

Going back further to April 1875, these are examples of the very first rosettes. At that time there were only 3 designs that had to be shared by 8 classes. These first type rosettes were only used from 1875 till 1877.

[Tim B]

The amendmend that Hirohito signed into law on 18th May 1936, which finally gave each class its own rosette design.

[Tim B]

Again, many thanks to Komiya-san for providing this information!

Hopefully, that will help some of us determine the authenticity of cased sets in the future.

Tim

[fukuoka]

Again, many thanks to Komiya-san for providing this information!

Hopefully, that will help some of us determine the authenticity of cased sets in the future.

Tim

Yes, many thanks to Nick Komiya. He has always been generous and helpful and knows a lot about Japanese military things (as well as other subjects, I imagine). I would like to add a thing or two, though. You mentioned that these were the official illustrations. Although the latter pictures are, the first one isn't. It appears to be from a book. And let me add another important date to the rosettes. As you can see, originally the 7th/8th classes had a bow. A round lapel rosette replaced the bow in 1921. (Ordinance #146, April 25, 1921.) It was the same three-pronged design for both. (The 7th class got its own rosette in 1936, as you mentioned.) I want to show you the original illustration, but I am having trouble posting pics here.

On the same day, the 6th/7th Class Golden Kite bow rosette was replaced with a three-pronged round lapel rosette, too. (Ordinance #149, April 25, 1921.) Again, the 1936 revision gave the 6th Class its own rosette.

Cheers,

Rich

Edited April 17, 2011 by fukuoka