NSDAP Organisation SA Dagger handles

[Spasm]

Chaps and Chapesses,

Thought I'd let you have a look at these. Check out the colours of the handles.

The August Bickel is numbered and blowed if I can figure what the numbering means. I've looked up Brigade 15 who seem to have been based in Itzehoe which is nowhere near the Gruppe (Gau) mark Fr for Franken. maybe its the Standarte or Sturm number. Anyone have any ideas?

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You can perhaps just make out the stamped number on the lower cross guard - 15/22077

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A full Rohm with a great coloured handle

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The inscription side

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A transition dagger from F.W. Holler / RZM M7/33 with hanger marked 1941 which is some time after these daggers but could've been replaced at the time I suppose. Still great coloured handle with alluminium eagle and plated crossguards (not as well made as the earlier daggers)

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Gents

The detail of the stamped numbers on the August Bickel. They are exactly as shown in Ralf Siegert's - The Service Daggers of the SA and the NSKK - book on page 73, he calls it a "stamped service number". But he doesn't detail what the numbers signify only that the number belongs to the dagger and does not identify the person. However the "15" must relate to a Brigade or Sturm as the dagger in his book is also stamped 15, is Gruppe (Gau) marked Fr and is an August Bickel. He also states that only weapon masters had access to number stamps which is why most numbered daggers are engraved with any personalised numbering.

So, I therefore think I can say that this particular Brigade/Sturm/etc stamped their daggers before or at issue to the individual. Any ideas which one? I'll let you know if I find anything.

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Still haven't found any real evidence other than reading Ralf's book again. (As it's translated from German the sentences read a bit funny in some places - using babelfish on the original German is no help either). But he says that the 15 is the Brigade number.

Does anybody know where Brigade 15 were based? I'm sure there were a few places as there were getting on for 4 million SA members at its height.

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Still looking for evidence and have come across a paper by Dr martin Schuster who seems to favour the 5 digit number being the SA Member's Ausweis (document of identification) number.

There were no regulations regarding individualisation to daggers but some Gruppe seemed to have some form of similarity in stamping the cross guards - Berlin and Nordmark daggers (that are stamped) have the Sturm and Standarte stamped giving a --/-- type number prior to the 5 digit number, while others have just a double digit number prior to the 5 digit. Still searching, help would be greatly accepted.

Spaz

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Well, still looking....

It seems as though only two brigades were in the Franken Gruppe - Brigade 78 based in Wurzburg and Brigade 79 based in Nurnberg. So, it seems as though I'm looking for a Standarte. I think both Standarte 14 and 15 were based in Nurnberg (only mentions of reserve SA in german web pages but no actual direct evidence, so would be nice to see some) and Philip Wurzbacher was the Brigade Leader. I've seen both 14/----- and 15/----- stamped on SA daggers so (a bit of a leap of faith here) it may have been Wurzbacher who ordered the numbering of the daggers.

So, would the Ausweis numbers match the dagger numbers in Gruppe Franken? Does anybody have any? Is there a list somewhere of SA member's numbers?

Spaz

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This is Philipp Wurzburger, Brigadefuhrer of Brigade 78 after being promoted from leader of Standarte 14 in 1937. He was a politician in the NSDAP and was gold party badge holder 65782. Apparently he was released from captivity in 1953.

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Right, now I've found these (which sort of go together to understand the Identification paper):

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A Franken, Brigade 78 Ausweis:

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So, this Truppfuhrer (staff sergeant), according to SA rank insignia I have found on t'tinternet, should have two pips on his left collar and, as he is a sturm member should have Sturm/Standarte on his right collar. Looking at the stamp with the eagle - his Sturmbann is III which is then follwed by the Standarte which is 21. Further down the Ausweis is his Sturm which is 21 followed by his Standarte which again is 21. So, his collar should say 21/21. Senior staff would have Sturmbann which is III followed by the Standarte which is 21, hence III/21. I'm assuming Truppfuhrer isn't senior staff.

Looking at his photo I can't see anything - so that helps then. But, any old end up, it looks like there was also a Standarte 21 in Franken. So, if Philipp Wurzburger liked everyone to have stamped numbered daggers would Anton's have been 21/44273?

Am I talking to myself here? come on guys help a bit I'm just getting lost :unsure:

Edited August 14, 2011 by Spasm

[Spasm]

Right, thats that solved then.

i've looked at all the Ausweis that I can lay my hands on and have read everything I can find on the subject short of translating every bit of german on babelfish from within the records at the Bundesarchiv SA files. (took some time copying small paragraphs into the translation box I can tell you)

Nordmark and Berlin daggers (or any others with the same configuration for that matter) that have the --/-- prior to the 5 digit numbers are the Sturm and Standarte (most Ausweis have this configuration within them) followed by the individual's SA Ausweis number. So, for example, a dagger stamp marked 23/85 Nm 32451 will be Sturm 23, Standarte 85, Gruppe Nordmark and Ausweis Number 32451.

Franken daggers (or others) that have the --/----- are the Standarte Number and then the Ausweis. So, for example, like mine above, a dagger stamp marked 15/22077 Fr will be Standarte 15, Ausweis Number 22077 and Gruppe Franken.

So, anyone have a copy of SA Franken Ausweis Number 22077 I can have a look at? ;)

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Oh and by the way just in case you were wondering. The map below shows the Gau districts of Germany. They are not the same as the SA Gruppe area maps I've seen on most dagger collector web pages.

It says Gruppe in most of the SA Ausweis I've seen and doesn't mention Gau, so I believe the stamped area marks on the early daggers are Gruppe marks not "Gau" marks.

[EBJ]

There has been much speculation about the numbered SA daggers from Group Nordmark. The "experts" say the numbers following the Brigade numbers are ausweiss numbers. I have several numbered Nm daggers, as well as a numbered NSKK dagger from Pommern, all with matching scabbard numbers. The Pommern number is only 4 digits. I also have an SA Group Nm ausweiss that has an entry for the Dolch Nr as well as the Ausweiss number. They are different! Some may correspond to ausweiss numbers; I'd like to see an auswess that has matrching numbers for both.

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EBJ

Thanks for your post. The ID you have with different dagger and Ausweis numbers seems to blow that theory then (along with the one that is in Ralf Seigert's book). The daggers were simply numbered on the dagger and the scabbard (as K98 bayonets were) at the 'depot' and that number entered into the Ausweis when the dagger was issued. Same as a Soldbuch that has equipment numbers inside - you wouldn't expect a luger number to match the bloke it was issued to.

By the way, it would be nice to see your daggers

Cheers

Spaz

Edited September 13, 2011 by Spasm

[EBJ]

I have considered that, perhaps, the daggers were initially numbered corresponding to the bearers' ausweiss numbers; hence no dolch number entries in some ausweisses. However, that seems counterintuitive, as why would one want to have a dagger with someone else's ausweiss number?!

I have also seen a Pommern dagger with matching three digit numbers. The Franken dagger is the first numbered one I have seen from Gr Fr. However, Bigades 14-16 were in Gr Nordmark. Mine are Br 15 and 16. My Pommern is unusual as it is numbered to Brigade 10. Since there was initially no Brigade 10 in Pommern, it may have been added later as a Motor Brigade. It fits in the Brigade number sequence for Pommern. I will work on some photos. EBJ

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EBJ

The Franken dagger I own and the one shown in Ralf's book are both stamped 15. But as far as I am aware there was no Brigade 15 in Franken. The only Brigade 15 I am aware of (and I have very limited knowledge on Brigades) was based in Itzehoe which is in your Nordmark Gruppe.

However, there was a Standarte 15 in Franken (as well as in other Gruppe) but alongside the Fr stamp the dagger can be identified to the correct one.

Are you sure about the Pommern dagger? As far as I am aware Pommern was only an SA marking. Could your guy have initially been SA and transferred to the NSKK painting his scabbard black? Which would fit with a later Brigade as the Gruppe mark wouldn't have been there after 1936.

Spaz

[EBJ]

Spaz,

According to my 1/11/35 reference of SA "Brigaden-Gruppen-Standarten", Pommern Brigades were 7, 8, 9, 107, 108, Marine Brigade 1. There is no Brigade 10 listed; 11 and 12 were assigned to Gr Hansa. So, I speculate that, perhaps, an SA Motor Brigade 10 might have been created for Pommern. Then, when the NSKK came along, the scabbard was changed to black.

Only a guess! I have been unable to locate a later SA "Standort-Berzeichnus" than the 1935 copy. EBJ

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EBJ

I'm afraid I can't help locating NSKK Br 10 (and I've spent some hours looking as well). But here's confirmation of an NSKK painted dagger marked Br 16 Gr Nm:

http://www.modern.premieremperor.com/shop/viewphoto.php?x=2

Spaz

Edited September 14, 2011 by Spasm

[EBJ]

Spaz,

I have a similarly-marked SA dagger for Nm Brigade 16. The upper scabbard band is marked the same as the lower dagger crossguard. I think what happened to this dagger and my Pommern dagger is, when the SA Brigades were incorporated into the NSKK, the SA scabbards were replaced with the unmarked NSKK scabbards. My Pommern NSKK also does not have the Brigade markings on the upper scabbard band. I know the Pommern is good as I got it from a very prominent SA dagger authority.

Just my thoughts. EBJ

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EBJ

Sounds like you've got that figured about right, I've read similar, let me go look.....

"Since 19 May 1936, by the order of Huhnlein, all scabbards were painted black or alternatively replaced......Being too expensive for a standard SA member (price of 7.05RM) scabbards of the early daggers were treated with black paint or replaced by privately purchased SS scabbards" - The Service Daggers of the SA and the NSKK.

And as there were no Gruppe marks after 1936 it looks like your guy had an issued SA within Gr P and later joined the NSKK at which point he replaced his scabbard as it was cheaper than buying a whole new dagger. I also expect the scabbards were pretty easy to come by at that time, probably a NSKK guy supplying black painted ones as a swap for the original brown one to keep costs down.

Spaz