Russian Percussion musket- Punjab, 1900

[jf42]

I would be grateful for comments on a percussion musket that seems to be of Russian origin, whose provenance dates the British-Indian NWF in 1899-1900.

My great-grandfather worked in Madras from 1872 to 1892. In 1899-1900, he and my great-grandmother returned to visit their daughter and new grandson whose father was CO of a battalion of Sikhs based at Dera Ismail Khan in the "Punjaub".

My g.g'father accompanied his son-in law on brigade manoeuvres. The miscellaneous native weaponry discovered in the attic (including a lightweight matchlock, which although worm-eaten survives) was presumably shipped home after this trip.

It includes a smoothbore percussion musket that appears to be of Russian manufacture. On the brass furniture there are stamped markings in Cyrillic- птв and (I think) цмс, together with the date '1849' and a serial number [N] 11129. In all but one instance, the numbers and letters are accompanied by the stamped symbol of what I would describe as a geologist's hammer.

A brief internet search suggests this might be an Russian M1845 smooth bore, based on a French model of 1842. It has the appropriate raised cheek piece on the inside of the butt. The '1849' is confusing. Is there a chance this might be a local copy made in the NWF region? I'm not sure what use a smooth bore musket might be in the land of the jezail and breechloader, ca 1900.. Perhaps that's why my g.gfather was able to acquire it as a souvenir, but this is not my AOE.

While I struggle to upload images, here is a summary of the markings:

Butt plate: 11129 птв ^[Hammer]‘T’ 184 190 [?]

Trigger guard plate: цмс ^[Hammer] ‘T’ 1849 89

Left Hand Firing assembly plate: 18 ^[Hammer]‘T’ 49 ¹42 [?]

Barrel stamp ( at rear): N111[29?]

Rear barrel strap:

--7[?]

1849

^[Hammer]‘T’

птв

Mid barrel strap and sling swivel:

119

1823 [?]

^[Hammer]‘T’

цмс

Fore barrel strap and птв ^[Hammer]‘T’ 1849 69

ramrod housing

(Sorry- that was meant to be a table. Formatting is all off.)

I should be grateful for any enlightenment.

Thanks,

JF

(This is a cross post from 'Imperial Russia')

Edited September 26, 2011 by jf42

[jf42]

Percussion Musket- Hammer and trigger assembly

[jf42]

Percussion musket- rear trigger guard plate

[jf42]

Percussion musket- butt plate

[jf42]

Percussion Musket- butt plate detail

[jf42]

Percussion Musket- fore barrel strap & ramrod

[Mervyn Mitton]

jf - this actually marks a very interesting period of history - and with your antecedants provenance almost certainly taken from Afghanistan.

The fist Afghan War between Britain - represented by the Hon. East India Companies army - and the Afghan Army , took place between 1839 and 1842.

The main reason was that Russia was intent on expanding it's field of influence into the Far East - and the easiest way was through Afghanistan and into India. We were well aware of this and saw it as a great threat to our Indian Empire. The book 'KIM' by Rudyard Kipling deals with some of the background.

Nothing with Afghanistan has ever been simple - there were several contenders for the throne - some friendly to Britain and others to the Russians.

We invaded with an army of some 21,000 - mostly Indian troops. I will not go into the full history - only to say that we lowered the number of troops to about 8000 and they were allowed to have their families. Eventually, we retreated and some 12,000 British subjects were slaughtered in the snow covered passes.

This leads us to your musket. Russian - dated 1849 - obviously the Russians had maintained their contact and still had firm intentions of an invasion into India. This led to the 2nd. Afghan War in 1878 ,9, 80. I am about to post a medal for this War. However, in the meantime Britain still remained in contact with friendly leaders in Afghanistan and I would say this was obtained to show the Russians were supplying arms. Equally, there were lots of skirmishes and this could have been taken from a dead Russian. I don't suppose you will ever know - unless there is diary ?

[jf42]

Mervyn,

Thanks. Sadly, there's no diary, only a photo album of Box Brownie snaps but none of my g'gfather with a Russian musket. The 1st Sikhs had had a busy time with the Tochi Field force in 1897 and perhaps the weapon was a souvenir of that year's campaign, presented him by the CO, who was his host.

lt's remarkable that the weapon had been knocking around for fifty odd years. Presumably, it didn't arrive in Afghanistan or Waziristan as a spanking new issue but was passed as surplus after rifled muskets had been adopted by the Imperial Russian Army and eventually arrived as an old bundook on the frontier.

[Mervyn Mitton]

jf - why do you think it would arrive so late ? I would say that it arrived in Afghanistan soon after 1849 - the war never really stopped and the Russians had every intention of taking the passes into India - and then India.

This was the expansionist period in European history - Countries like Germany and Russia suddenly realised that the maritime powers , Britian, France, Holland etc had a number of overseas possessions - which limited their gaining bases. Germany went after Africa - Russia was aiming for the Far East.

Britain fought 3 historical wars with Afghanistan - 1839 ; 1878 and 1919. Now we are involved in a fourth. A barbaric and barren place it defeated all of us - including the Russians and the US. We should have bombed the passes closed and left them to get on with their own lives.

[Mark C]

I don't see much chance for this musket to have come to Afghanistan until much later than 1849. Russian territory did not touch Afghanistan until much later. It was only in the 1860s that they started taking over the central Asian khanates north of Afghanistan.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Mark C

[Mervyn Mitton]

Mark - I'm afraid that the history of the time showed that Russia was clearly planning to make a base in Afghanistan. From there the intention was to invade India. Afghanistan was the barrier and both wars were to prevent the Russians taking control.