Early Royal Munster Fusiliers collar badge

[Noor]

Hi all,

I got that collar as a Royal Dublin Fusiliers 1st Bn. collar badge 1881-1883 but looks like it is actually early Royal Munster Fusiliers one.

I posted it up on the specific British badge forum and all indicates RMF.

I stick it up here as well for a second opinion or the best - if any of you have ever came accross with any of nice close enogh portrait, where is this collar on wear.

Any advise would be great,

Timo aka Noor

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Timo

Your badge is an ORs, 102nd Foot (Royal Madras Fusiliers) collar badge 1871 to 1881.Quite scarce. They come in facing pairs, ie there is another with the tiger facing the other way. Regards. Jeff

Edited April 23, 2012 by Jeff Mc William

[Noor]

Hi Jeff,

Thats very interesting - I bought it as an early Royal Dublin Fusiliers collar badge. Some how tail is "cowed". Members on the British Badge Forum were sure it should be Royal Munsters.

May I ask your information source? If I can be sure and confirm that it is 102nd Foot, I will be VERY HAPPY!

Here is one more, what is recorded some listings as a early 1st Bn. RDF collar for a short period of time.

Thanks again,

Timo

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Timo

Yes, that's correct ; Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Prior to 1881 the regiment comprised the 102nd (Royal Madras Fus) & 103rd Foot (Royal Bombay Fus). They were later combined to form the 1st & 2nd Battalions Royal Dublin Fus.

It would appear that your tiger badges were also worn on the collars prior to 1881. Collars were introduced in 1871, so it could be that one or other of the two types were adopted first. (the 103rd Foot wore a plain grenade).

My source is : "History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge" by Colin Churchill. pub : The Naval & Military Press 2002. Hope this helps. Jeff

[Noor]

Thanks!

But under that section, book states - There is no record of either badge having been authorised or worn, nor is there any photographic evidence to support these theories....... It seems doubtful if either item, especially the second one (my post 1), is connected Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Regards,

Timo

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Timo

Sorry, but from the tenor of your original posts, I had assumed you knew little or nothing about British Army Collar badges, so I just thought I was being helpful.

Yes, I must admit, Churchill is a bit confusing on this issue. I see earlier on in the same passage you quoted, when discussing the general introduction of collar badges, he also states ; "It seems improbable that this record is correct..." thus questioning the accuracy of the ACD entries and highlighting the pitfalls one often finds when consulting the official accounts. From my own experience in these matters, I have found that lack of evidence does not necessarily indicate lack of practice,.. in fact often quite the opposite..it merely means that any conclusions one may draw cannot be officially confirmed. And there are many instances of this.

As you are no doubt aware, your "long tiger" is also attributed to the 75th Foot, but the grenade badge you posted is not even mentioned in ACD records..but does that mean it didn't exist !? One of the problems here is that there are no drawings or photos appended for these records..just descriptions, some open to interpretation. One is tempted to ask ; "If Churchill was so reticent about these badges, why did he include them ?"

The only other references I can give you re PT collar badges are :

(1) 3 articles in "Crown Imperial" by P.P.Holder, viz ; No 65 Winter 1991, No 66 Spring 1992, & No 71 Summer 1993.

Holder shows your grenade badge which he says is 102nd Foot.

(2) J.S.A.H.R Vol XXIX, No 118 Summer 1951. Article by A.R.Cattley. He describes both badges to the 102nd Foot

I have also "dabbled" into this subject myself some time ago and indeed was priviledged to see the late, great, Hugh King's collection. But, at the end of the day I can only repeat what these learned gentlemen found during their own intensive researches. Regards Jeff

Edited April 25, 2012 by Jeff Mc William

[Jeff Mc William]

PS:

Hi again Timo

With reference to your remarks re the Munsters : As you will see from Churchill, the PT grenades for both the 101F & 104F were plain and in yellow-brass. After 1881, a trial pattern was made for the Munsters with a tiger and upright flames in gilding-metal (more red in colour) but was later rejected. Your grenade appears to be horizontal and in yellow-brass and therefore pre 1881. As ever of course, I could be wrong, but that's my opinion. Lets hope someone else can contribute to this thread to sort things out. Regards. Jeff

[Tischris]

Hi Jeff,

Thats very interesting - I bought it as an early Royal Dublin Fusiliers collar badge. Some how tail is "cowed". Members on the British Badge Forum were sure it should be Royal Munsters.

May I ask your information source? If I can be sure and confirm that it is 102nd Foot, I will be VERY HAPPY!

Here is one more, what is recorded some listings as a early 1st Bn. RDF collar for a short period of time.

Thanks again,

Timo

Hi,

I believe this to be the collar badge on my Gt. Great-grandfather's uniform - my great grandmother was born in Dublin or India as stated on 1901 & 1911 censuses, which would tie this regiment to either place. I have an image of him in uniform & I would be grateful for any thoughts as to this collar badge?

Thank you in advace,

Chris