Help with identification please. Blackpowder pistol.

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I have just come into possession of this 20 mm smooth bore percussion cap muzzle loader and I hope some of the firearm enthusiasts within our membership can help with the identification. The full length is 12 inches with a 6 inch barrel and the stock is walnut. The bore is 20 mm across, the trigger guard is brass as is the ramrod fitting. There are two proof marks on the barrel that I cannot make out and the photographs are as clear as you can get and even to the naked eye are just as they appear in the photo.

The one mark is pretty well a “blob” but the other one looks like there is something crossed, lances or some such, that would be behind the crest or whatever the mark is. I hope that perhaps someone has seen something similar in their research and they can help me with the identification.

The country of origin and approximant date would be very helpful indeed. Any assistance you can extend to me would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is a view of the the other side showing the belt hook.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Now for the view of the proof marks I mentioned.

I'm sorry that these are not clearer but this is exactly as the appear on the barrel.

It's been a while since I have added a firearm to the collection and I must say once this little beauty was in my hand it just felt right.

There are few things like that in life, swords being the other one.My wife cannot understand this but some weapons, whether firearm or sword just seems to become a part of your arm and you just know you belong together.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

One more try.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian - sometimes these were called 'carriage pistols' - however, the common name for them was 'manstopper'.

The large bore - at close range was very effective. Your one has a belt hook still in position - this "might " indicate

that it was carried by someone on an official duty. Jobs that spring to mind, could be Prison Warders ; early Police ;

Coach Guard, etc.. Equally - it could just be for a gentleman to wear under his jacket in case of footpads or,

highwaymen.

It was legal to carry guns and swords until the Offences against the Person Act of 1864. Personally, I have always

thought this should be repealed - a small Uzi would be useful in some Countries.

[Dave Alexander]

Towards the front of the stock there is a pin that holds in the barrel. Tap that out from the right and remove it from the left. The barrel will come out and there should be a makers name on the bottom of it.

[Brian Wolfe]

Towards the front of the stock there is a pin that holds in the barrel. Tap that out from the right and remove it from the left. The barrel will come out and there should be a makers name on the bottom of it.

Thanks Dave,

I knew I should not check the forum from work this morning, now I have all day to wait to check this out.

I'll post what I find out later today.

Thanks again.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

I took the barrel off and all that was stamped under it was the number 8 preceeded or followed by a dot, depending upon which way you look at it. It is not a "period" as it is centered to the "8".

Looks like the search for the identification is still ongoing. I'm attending a local gun show this coming Sunday and perhaps one of the collector/dealers in attendance will shed some light on the mystery.

Regards

Brian

[Dave Alexander]

My last post seems to have disappeared but as to maker I can only speculate. For the style and time period I would say to point your nose in the direction of Birmingham, England. These were "mass produced" even though handmade. One contractor for barrels, one for trigger assemblies etc.

[Dave Alexander]

Should have added the time period I take to be mid to late 1700s. Good luck on Sunday.

[Brian Wolfe]

Thanks again for your assistance Dave.

I'll let you know what I find out at the gun show, though I think they will only verify what you have already said.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello DAve,

I just noticed that you may have made a typo on the date as percussion caps were not introduced untli around 1840.

I think you meant to type "mid to late 1800s".

Regards

Brian

[Dave Alexander]

Still a problem trying to post on this site, I type it out, hit "Post' get the flashing green light then nothing happens. No typo, Brian, I would put this pistol at 1790 or thereabouts.The first percussion caps came out in England in 1807 and most all flintlocks were converted to percussion over the next few years. The last flintlocks in N. America were produced for the US Army in 1830 and some 2,000 were still in use 30 yrs later during the Civil War. Usually you can see old screw holes sometimes filled in on the right hand side, but don't take it apart if you don't have the correct tools and experience, they can be tricky.

[Brian Wolfe]

Still a problem trying to post on this site, I type it out, hit "Post' get the flashing green light then nothing happens. No typo, Brian, I would put this pistol at 1790 or thereabouts.The first percussion caps came out in England in 1807 and most all flintlocks were converted to percussion over the next few years. The last flintlocks in N. America were produced for the US Army in 1830 and some 2,000 were still in use 30 yrs later during the Civil War. Usually you can see old screw holes sometimes filled in on the right hand side, but don't take it apart if you don't have the correct tools and experience, they can be tricky.

Thanks once again Dave. The holes you noted are quite noticable once I took a closer look. I am liking this pistol more and more. Perhaps a "died in the wool" firearms collector might find a conversion less desirable, I don't know for sure, however I really like the fact that this had two lives. One as a flintlock and a second as a percussion cap firearm.

Regards

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello everyone,

Some new information has just come in from a new member, njaw (Nick) regarding this pistol.

I'll try to type his message to me word for word with as few typos as possible below.

"I just came across your post concerning the percussion pistol. A very nice piece indeed!

I have a pistol which is near enough identical to yours. Mine was actually used by the Merthyr Tydfil police force South Wales in the mid 1800's.

Your pistol sports a back lock action and was always a percussion pistol. It is not a flintlock conversion.

Despite what has been said in your thread, the pistol dates from the 1840's. The percussion system came into force in the 1830's as did the back lock action. Police pistols were often unsigned.

Cheers

Nick"

Nick provided me with a link to his collection and I must say I am impressed. I've asked if he would be interested in posting some of his collection and I do hope he will do so in the near future.

Many thanks Nick, this is exactly how a good forum becomes a great forum.

Regards

Brian