royal dragoons helmet

[blueman]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-10499-0-58180700-1362163272.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-10499-0-39527800-1362163289.jpghi guys is this 1871 pattern ,any info welcomehttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-10499-0-16917500-1362163234.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-10499-0-36183300-1362163243.jpg

[theironduke1]

Hi Kevin:

I guess i already replied to this one on the Victorian Wars Forum

Bruce

[Mervyn Mitton]

We don't work for you Kevin - just try to help you. But is it fair if you post on all of the other forums ? Almost like trying to catch us out. Mervyn

[blueman]

mervyn ,im sorry not trying to undermine anyone,i just found it interesting to get different opinions,as they vary from one forum to another,the dragoons helmet for instance ,one forum says or another says officers ??,just trying to learn, im no expert which is why i joined....regards kev

[pjac]

I don't see any problem in looking for opinions and advice on a number of forums.

Anyway, It's an 1871 pattern 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) trooper's helmet. What's left of the lining is trooper style leather lining rather than the officer style quilted cloth or silk, and the helmet is in brass and white metal rather than the gilt and silvered metal of an officer's helmet. No officer plate would be worn by polishing like this one.

Patrick

[blueman]

as to mervyns comments ive decided to resign from this forum im 66 years old and dont need this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mervyn Mitton]

Kevin - that is an unnessary step - no one wants you to leave. In fact you have posted some very interesting items. However, it came as

rather a shock to find that we have become part of a 'panel'. There is no problem with being on other forums - or, in consulting them. The

more information the better. Your decision. Mervyn

[theironduke1]

Hi Kevin:

I also hope you don't resign. Just wanted to comment opn Patrick's post on the helmet. I agree that in most respects it is a trooper's helmet, however the center of Trooper's badges on the star contained the number '6' on a black leather backing. The circle was a consistent for troopers of all Dragoon Guards & Dragoons .... The Garter with "Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense" don't think that ever changed. This badge has an officer's center.

Edited March 6, 2013 by theironduke1

[pjac]

Ironduke

You're absolutely right! I was so convinced that the quality and liner were OR that I completely forgot about the OR garter and numeral. I think,in fact, that the whole plate is officer's as the star is like that of the officer's plate for the Carabiniers rather than the universal star you find on dragoon guards and dragoon helmets for other ranks, which has longer and more pronounced rays- eg my 5th DG below.(don't know why it's coming out sideways!) I still don't understand though why the central device would have been so heavily polished as,according to David Rowe, it was 'silvered' on a 'frosted gilt ground' so I think any cleaning done would be rare and very careful!

Patrick

Edited March 6, 2013 by pjac

[theironduke1]

Hi Patrick.

It looks to me like it has been polished ad nauseam over the years .... not by any officer's batman for sure.... possibly some small boy who has worn it to play with. If you think about it, it must be at least 100 years old as the Carabiniers amalgamated with the 3rd DG in 1922 and a different badge was ordered. I have never seen a Carabiniers officer's helmet in photos (close enough to see details) between the late 1860s and 1890s. Although the Dress regulations from 1890 until 1900 record that the officer's badge, like that of the 5th DG was simply to be the number 6 like the other ranks. In his excellent book .. Rowe asserts that no example of the officer's badge using the No. 6 has ever surfaced.

Bruce

[blueman]

hi bruce great in depth info this is why im staying...........kev

[pjac]

Kev

Glad to see that you're sticking with us.

Patrick

[pjac]

Bruce

If you're a British helmet collector how about posting some photos? I've got my small collection on here and Stuart Bates's mighty collection is also posted on this forum.

Patrick

[theironduke1]

Hi Patrick.

Unfortunately, I'm not much of a helmet collector. I do have a couple of them though ... Edwardian RA officers helmet and a German Pickelhaube. I am more of an aficionado and researcher. I have been doing a study on British late Victorian Cavalry uniforms and hope to publish it in a couple of years. I have just finished a book on the Prussian Army which is being published by Casemate in May this year. Also, I have been a badge collector for many years and I have started putting my collection up on my website. It is still a work in process but I have a few boards up now. There you have it in a nutshell.

Here is the link to the badge section on my website.

http://www.uniformology.com/BG00.html

Bruce

[pjac]

Bruce

Very impressive collection . I particularly like the Cavalry NCO arm badges and insignia. My badge collection is pre - QEII, although there are some QE II badges in a miscellaneous group of 37 pieces that I'm selling on ebay at the moment. There's a not very good photo of my assembled collection on the 'Battle of the badges' post.

Does your research on Victorian cavalry extend to explaining why I have a Staffordshire Yeomanry helmet with brass fittings rather than the white metal ones it ought to have. I've got nowhere with trying to solve this one!

Patrick

[theironduke1]

Patrick

When I started my collection years ago, I decided (like a good collector) to restrict myself to a certain area and I chose the era of Queen Elizabeth II, especially as I joined the Royal Artillery in 1966 and it made sense.

I have quite a bit of stuff on the Staffordshire Yeomanry, so I will dig it out and get back to you.

Bruce

[theironduke1]

Patrick.

If you have the Ogilby Trust Booklet No. 15 on the Staffordshire Yeomanry, then this post will be superfluous. I am afraid that there is no evidence of the plate or fittings being of anything but white metal. Since the helmet itself was unique (Do I assume you have the black japanned metal one?) it is improbable that the fittings on original manufacture were ever brass. I suppose someone could have fitted a brass plumeholder or rosettes and added a brass curb chain but other than that, I can't help.

Hers is a photo and extract from the OT booklet. (Written by R.J. Smith & C.R. Coogan)

Bruce

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-14012-0-24731100-1362772082.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-14012-0-32000300-1362772083.jpg

Edited March 8, 2013 by theironduke1

[pjac]

Hi Bruce

Thanks.I don't have this book, but it confirms what I've gleaned from other sources and the regimental museum.

There's a picture below of my helmet, which is to an OR. I bought it a while ago on ebay at a good price. It's in excellent condition, but when I cleaned it up what looked like tarnished white metal fittings (which would be correct) came up looking like brass.They are not, however, as the back of the helmet plate and the decorative band under the one rosette I can remove are in white metal. The 'brass' does not seem to be painted as some exploratory work on a bit hidden by the plume doesn't shift it and it would be incredibly difficult to paint something as intricate as this, given that the decorative bands are riveted on. Also why not do the bit under the rosette? The same applies to plating, which somebody suggested. There was a bit of a debate in the section of GMIC about restoration and it was suggested that white metal plating might have been polished back to a brass base, but I've always thought white metal was solid rather than plated. It remains a mystery, but in the absence of an answer I'm favouring the idea that this is another of these examples of some modification being made locally at the whim of a Yeomanry C.O. which both David Rowe and Stuart Bates have told me did happen.Forgot to mention that the rosette on the plume is in white metal and the plume appears to be an original rather than a modern production.

Patrick

[theironduke1]

Well, Patrick, it is still a magnificent example of a mid-Victorian headdress. I must say that I have seen sheffield plate when left unpolished for years becomes very 'brassy' looking but usually, a polish will remove the tarnish. It also may have been a regimental experiment to cut costs or distinguish OR's helmets from Officers. Making a brass plate from existing moulds would not have been that difficult. That may be the reason it survived so long by not having been worn much. It just goes to show what a challenge collecting can be whan you cannot clearly see into the past.

[theironduke1]

Patrick ... I think I solved the problem for you. Thank heavens for photoshop!!

[pjac]

Bruce

Very nice job!

I've just remembered that the seller said he'd been told the fittings were 'German silver' which ,so far as I know, is an alloy of primarily copper, nickel and zinc, but it should still look silver.

Patrick