Tipstaff question

[depdogcov]

Help required.

I have had this tipstaff for a while but am unsure whether the leather covering the shaft should actually be there or not?

The tipstaff is of all brass construction and the leather is fairly new and has been glued to the shaft. The two sides meet to form a simple join with no stitching etc. I have been unable to find any other examples of this type and can't help feeling that the shaft should not be covered.

Any and all opinions would be most welcome!

Edited June 2, 2013 by depdogcov

[Mervyn Mitton]

You have set us a challenge with your avatar - depdogcov - perhaps an abbrev. of 'Deep Dog Cover' ? We shall look forward

to the uncovering ! Meanwhile, you are very welcome on GMIC.

The head of the tipstaff has been cast in brass - gilded, which has worn. The Cross Pate (the double cross surmounting the Crown is

correct and I would say this is off a Victorian or, William 4th. tipstaff. With regard to the shaft - this is not correct. I would say thay it would

originally have had a brass body - although Scotland tended to use ebony.

I would hazard a guess that the shaft has been damaged and been covered in leather. The end piece has a screw fitting and if it is hollow

then probably the original body.

You need to carefully lift the leather and see what is underneath - if Scottish it will be about 4 to 4.5 inches long (10/11 cm)

Perhaps you could do a close-up of the brass endpiece ? Mervyn

[depdogcov]

Thanks for the reply Mervyn.

Sadly I fear you will be disappointed when I explain 'depdogcov'. It is my username on a well known commercial buying and selling site and when I joined I was a deputy headteacher in a school in Coventry. Any illusion of romance or excitement has now been shattered!

I must just say I recently got my hands on a copy of "The Policeman's Lot" and what a fine book it is!

Back to the tipstaff. It's proportions are very similar to the standard "Parker and Field" tipstaff and is 8 inches long. The shaft is hollow along its full length from just below the crown. The detail on the crown and the end cap is still really crisp and traces of the original gilt finish are especially clear on the cap.

I have attached a couple of extra pics but apologise in advance for their lack of clarity. I have had a look inside the shaft and cannot see any damage.

I am itching to take the leather covering off. Who knows what sins it may be covering up!http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-7582-0-93782700-1370281992.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2013/post-7582-0-92833300-1370282028.jpg

[Brian Wolfe]

I've been waiting for Mervyn's response before posting my comments on what an interesting tip staff this is.

Thanks for posting it and please let us know what is under the leather, if you decide to remove it.

Regards

Brian

[depdogcov]

Thanks for your interest Brian.

Having thrown caution to the wind the leather covering has been removed. Much to my relief the brass underneath is in perfect condition and in fact there are still traces of the gilt finish. The shaft is plain except for three narrow engraved bands.

So now I am left with two questions:

1) Why did someone feel it necessary to cover the shaft with leather?

2) Who would it have been used by originally?

Both questions are probably impossible to answer!

[Mervyn Mitton]

Whilst this looks like a Parker Field tipstaff - it isn't. They always engraved their current name - also the finial on the end

is not their pattern. They always used one that had a pattern like the base of a shotgun cartridge.

I suspect that one of it's previous owners decided to use leather to protect the gilt on the body from any further wear - splendid

that you have removed it and shown the brass. Obviously it would have been nicer if there was an original engraving for it's

use - however, many carriers never bothered. They knew who they were - and simply having a tipstaff gave great powers -

so, the public at large showed great respect to the carrier. Should it have been someone with a Power of Arrest, and you

resisted - that carried a penalty of 7 years transportation - extra to the sentence.

I would date this from 1830 (William 4th) and for an insured value Pounds sterling - 400/500. More if you had a provenance -

can you remember where you bought-it ?

Thankyou for your kind comments on my book - it is over 28 years since I wrote it - and to my knowledge it is still the only one

that covers all aspects of police collecting. I wish I could sign it for you - however, at nearly 77 my travelling days are over. Mervyn

ps. Thankyou for telling me who you were - I thought it was a friend 'testing me out' - cheeky devils do that sort of thing...........

[depdogcov]

Many thanks Mervyn, you have been really helpful! I bought the tipstaff in May 2011 for £240 on ebay.

Although this probably isn't the correct forum I thought I would add a few more photo's of four other tipstaves I have. I would be interested to know more about them so that's my justification for listing here!

Regards,

Paul

The first one has nothing engraved on the shaft.

The second one (which I thought was made by Parker and Field but does not have their name on it) is inscribed "B3". Is this Chelsea?

The third one is inscribed "C.21 6.W. (this could be "C.2/ 6.W.) I think this is probably the earliest and I would dearly like to know more about it!

Number four has brass end bands (not caps) with the inscription "2d. District. No. 60" at one end and "Mid. Ward OF Lanarkshire." at the other end. This I thought was a steal last year at £25!

[Brian Wolfe]

What a great collection!

I have moved this topic to this section so that more of the members interested in tipstaffs might get the chance to view it.

Regards

Brian

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian - nice that you moved this post - particularly as Paul has others.

Paul - Let's deal with them by order.

No.1. With the straight edges to the Crown, probably William 4 (1830/37) or, early Victorian. The shape is

quite typical of that time - as is the rounded handle. However, I am a little concerned with the way the brass

moulding narrows at the grip end. I am wondering if the original grip was replaced. The wear on the wood is

from where it has been put down on tables over 176 years........... Value between 100/250 pounds.

No. 2. This is an Inspector's tipstaff for one of the early Forces. It would have been in a leather case that

was carried on the belt. The appearance is certainly of the Parker Field style - but without their name I think

perhaps made by another company following what had become a generic pattern ? The style of the central

ebony grip also looks slightly different. The B3 could be for any town or Force - perhaps Birmingham ?

Not having a definite place attribution does keep the price down a little - Perhaps around 300 pounds.

No.3. More likely to be C.21 6W. This is probably for one of the early town police. C21 is possibly Constable 21

and 6W - Ward no.6. The District or Ward that he was assigned to. From what I can see of the head it is a Georgian

Crown and could date from 1714 to 1830. More likely to be George 3rd. who is our second longest reigning

monarch - 1760 - 1820. Value wise I would think 400/500 pounds - again limited by no definite town.

No.4. From this inscription it sounds as if Lanarkshire had been divided into three Wards or, Districts to make

use of the men available. The person carrying this tipstaff was probably one of three High Constables.

This is typical of Scottish tipstaffs - about 4'' to 5'' long (10/12cm) and intended to go flat in the pocket. Sometimes

there is a third band in the middle giving the duties of the carrier. You must remember that Constables often carried

a tipstaff and a truncheon - so, it may just have been for Constable no. 60 - or, the area covered.

I would suggest you make further enquiries in whichever town or County now covers the middle part of Lanarkshire.

Probably around 600 pounds - but, this could rise if you find out more about him.

I hope this proves of some help - people often wonder why these small items can be worth so much. In most cases

there will only be one at any time for a ditrict and often they were handed down to the next constable. When my book

was first published we only found evidence of around 2000 tipstaffs - over the years I have heard of other small

collections , such as yours, being in existance. I would now put their numbers at around 2500 - but, not more.

A tipstaff is an integral part of British law and policing. The purpose was both ceremonial and as a mark of the

authority invested in the carrier by the Crown. Like a heraldically painted truncheon , it was necessary for the holder

to show it to the person being arrested - or, to whom he was giving instructions. Prior to the 17th Century

they are incredibly rare as few people had the right to carry them - and they are usually quite plain.

After this many people in authority wanted to carry them and managed to get permission to add them to the 'job'.

For personal showing-off they then started having them made of silver, ivory etc.. Assuming that perhaps 50%

have been lost over the years - they were always very limited in number. Mervyn

[depdogcov]

Thank you once again Mervyn.

I think you could well be correct about the handle on the first one, it does rather resemble something which would be more at home on a Victorian trivet or dustpan!

Having investigated further there is a short hollow tube with a diameter of 5 mm within the hollow shaft. This starts at the bottom of the the lower brass ring and extends upwards for about 3.5 cm. The end of the handle is sandwiched between this and the outer ring. The handle is hollow for about two thirds of its length. It also has a small flat section on the outside which could have been the result of the tipstaff resting over time on a flat surface but surely due to its shape it wouldn't always have been put down the same way?

[219PG]

This is currently advertised on ebay as a tipstaff - any ideas where from ?

[depdogcov]

Having looked at the photo's with the listing on ebay there is clearly something missing from the clenched fist. This section reminds me of the handle seen on certain types of Victorian safes and paperweights. I just happen to have one. I always wondered what the hand was holding. It could I suppose be a tipstaff? In the case of a safe that could represent strength and security. As for the paperweight, well that keeps your papers safe?

My guess regarding the tipstaff is that it is a made up piece. I have now put my head on the block and am waiting for Mervyn to chop it off!

[Mervyn Mitton]

The symbol of the clenched fist - to show power and authority - has been used by many different peoples around the World.

I agree that this is probably a made-up piece - using something like the safe handle. However, there is just one other

possibility - perhaps from a Coat-of-Arms ? Magistrates were usually the local Squire and would have arms. I will look

to see in the Landed Gentry book.

I hope someone doesn't pay a lot of money for it.

With regard to the hollow insides of your other tipstaffs (or, tipstaves - it is a plurality word) - I think this is just to keep them

light in weight. Some tipstaffs are hollow to hold a Warrant of arrest - or, a letter of appointment. They are not common

but, unfortunately, everyone assumes that is the purpose of a tipstaff. Mervyn