Ribbon Bar: Boxer Rebellion through the Iron Division

[landsknechte]

Just received this interesting ribbon bar today.  The lack of a long service medal to represent the 20+ years covered by these ribbons perplexed me at first glance.  Am I correct in thinking that this was likely a crewman on a civilian ship that was involved in the response to the Boxer Rebellion, who then ended up in the military (Navy?) when WWI rolled around?  Is there some other scenario that would make sense?  Would the composition of the Iron Division make some sort of other interpretation make more sense?

[bolewts58]

it is a bit of a weird one. As far as the Iron Division Medal, he may have been in some sort of support of the Iron Division/Russian Westarmee. I think this may be a transitional bar as he may well have also been eligible for the Russian George Medal and Baltic Cross.

[v.Perlet]

Hello landsknechte,

 

maybe you are already aware - the ribbons for the China Medaille were the same for the combat

award in bronze, and silver for civilians or military personal in a supportive role.

So "he" could have been anything civilian during the China crisis and 14 years later being called up or

volunteered for the Great war and prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit.

In such a case his actual service time in the army would have been just 4 -5 years.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

[bolewts58]

15 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

Hello landsknechte,

 

maybe you are already aware - the ribbons for the China Medaille were the same for the combat

award in bronze, and silver for civilians or military personal in a supportive role.

So "he" could have been anything civilian during the China crisis and 14 years later being called up or

volunteered for the Great war and prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit.

In such a case his actual service time in the army would have been just 4 -5 years.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Your comment about  "prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit" makes no sense with regards to the Freikorps or the Iron Division Medal, if by "East" you mean China. The Freikorps areas of operation were Germany, Silesia, Latvia and Lithuania. The Iron Division operated in Latvia and Lithuania. So, that's where he would have had to have been to get this medal.

[v.Perlet]

50 minutes ago, bolewts58 said:

Your comment about  "prolonging his stay in the East with a Freikorps unit" makes no sense with regards to the Freikorps or the Iron Division Medal, if by "East" you mean China. The Freikorps areas of operation were Germany, Silesia, Latvia and Lithuania. The Iron Division operated in Latvia and Lithuania. So, that's where he would have had to have been to get this medal.

 

??? - ".......One of many Freikorps, the Iron Division was raised on January 18, 1919 in Wainoden by an experienced German officer Major Josef Bischoff out of remnants of German 8^th...... Army, Iron Brigade (Eiserne Brigade) being another Freikorps unit and numerous volunteers. On October 06, 1919 it was absorbed by the West Russian Volunteer Army and disbanded on December 31, 1919. Association of the Iron Division former members was formed on March 01, 1920."........

 

So it was a Freikorps unit that this person joint after November 1918, thus prolonging his stay in the East, and the Western part of Russia would be to the East of Germany (e.g. Eastern Front)  and not to the West - right? Assuming that this person did not travel all the way from e.g. Munich to Western Russia - but already being stationed in the EAST due to being a member of the former German 8th Army - he therefore prolonged his stay in the East - right?

And China, or e.g. Thailand were you are supposedly staying is termed the "Far East". or if you want to break it down further, you are staying in South-East-Asia which is a specific geographical part of the Far East.

 

https://antique-photos.com/en/homepage/188-awardsdatabase-en/freikorps-awards/219-iron-division-medal.html#:~:text=Iron Division former military personnel%2C non-combatants who assisted,bought by veterans upon presentation of these certificates.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 14, 2022 by v.Perlet

[bolewts58]

6 hours ago, v.Perlet said:

 

??? - ".......One of many Freikorps, the Iron Division was raised on January 18, 1919 in Wainoden by an experienced German officer Major Josef Bischoff out of remnants of German 8^th...... Army, Iron Brigade (Eiserne Brigade) being another Freikorps unit and numerous volunteers. On October 06, 1919 it was absorbed by the West Russian Volunteer Army and disbanded on December 31, 1919. Association of the Iron Division former members was formed on March 01, 1920."........

 

So it was a Freikorps unit that this person joint after November 1918, thus prolonging his stay in the East, and the Western part of Russia would be to the East of Germany (e.g. Eastern Front)  and not to the West - right? Assuming that this person did not travel all the way from e.g. Munich to Western Russia - but already being stationed in the EAST due to being a member of the former German 8th Army - he therefore prolonged his stay in the East - right?

And China, or e.g. Thailand were you are supposedly staying is termed the "Far East". or if you want to break it down further, you are staying in South-East-Asia which is a specific geographical part of the Far East.

 

https://antique-photos.com/en/homepage/188-awardsdatabase-en/freikorps-awards/219-iron-division-medal.html#:~:text=Iron Division former military personnel%2C non-combatants who assisted,bought by veterans upon presentation of these certificates.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I have collected Freikorps for over 50 years. I don't need a lesson from you on the Iron division or the medal. I own one and an award document to it and happen to specialize in the "Eiserne Division". I'm also the moderator of the Freikorps Forum on WAF.

 

 

I was responding to the unclear way you wrote your comment which implied that he remained in China ("prolonged his stay in the East") as you were discussing China just before you made this comment. I don't need a geography lesson from you.

 

As I stated, if he received this medal he would have been operating in some capacity in the Eiserne Division / Russian Westarmee in Latvia and Lithuania. If you actually knew anything about this you'd know that the Russian Westarmee took over the Iron Division after it rebelled against orders from the German Government in 1919. It was  then commanded by both General Rüdiger Graf von der Goltz and General Pavel Bermondt-Avalov, a White Russian warlord. They did not operate in Western Russia, except in some air battles that took place over Russia. The theater of operation was the two Baltic states I mention: hence why it was called the Baltic Campaign.

Edited February 14, 2022 by bolewts58

[v.Perlet]

4 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

Don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I have collected Freikorps for over 50 years. I don't need a lesson from you on the Iron division or the medal. I own one and an award document to it and happen to specialize in the "Eiserne Division". I'm also the moderator of the Freikorps Forum on WAF.

 

 

I was responding to the unclear way you wrote your comment which implied that he remained in China ("prolonged his stay in the East") as you were discussing China just before you made this comment. I don't need a geography lesson from you.

 

As I stated, if he received this medal he would have been operating in some capacity in the Eiserne Division / Russian Westarmee in Latvia and Lithuania. If you actually knew anything about this you'd know that the Russian Westarmee took over the Iron Division after it rebelled against orders from the German Government in 1919. It was  then commanded by both General Rüdiger Graf von der Goltz and General Pavel Bermondt-Avalov, a White Russian warlord. They did not operate in Western Russia, except in some air battles that took place over Russia. The theater of operation was the two Baltic states I mention: hence why it was called the Baltic Campaign.

 

People like you, their specific mentality and argumentative approach are exactly the reason why I stay away from these "other" Forums. If you roam around a Forum that is called Wehrmacht.... and looking at the design of that webpage, I would strongly suggest that you urgently need to familiarize yourself with German terms and expressions.

Im Fernen Osten, in the far East

Im Osten,  in the East - If you don't know that the Baltikum lies in the East - then you got a problem not me. - if you don't know that China is referred to as being im fernen Osten, in the Far East - then again you got a problem not me.

 

Cite: Als Führer des „Freikorps Lüneburg-Volck“ gehört auch der Autor dieses autobiographischen Berichts zu denen, die sich nach Osten aufmachen.Seine Erlebnisschilderung läßt den „Krieg nach dem Krieg“, der 1919 im Baltikum geführt wurde, wieder lebendig werden.

 

https://freikorps.info/?p=143

 

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited February 14, 2022 by v.Perlet

[bolewts58]

Actually, I'm not prone to arguments at all.  I actually can't remember ever having an argument on here with anyone until now. But, you're being obtuse, playing with semantics and splitting hairs about 'East, Far East' to make yourself look clever. You were originally talking about Western Russian, which I addressed. Of course I know that the Baltic is East of Germany. This conversation has turned into you doubling down on irrelevant minutiae.

 

AND, you are STILL talking down to me, which I don't appreciate.

 

The bottom line is, you entered into this exchange about this ribbon bar contributing nothing to the conversation because you know nothing about what is being discussed. I've read your other posts. You rarely contribute any useful information. At best you jump in with speculation that adds nothing.

 

At the moment, I'm the one who has concrete knowledge about the Iron Division Medal and why it might be on this bar. That's all the OP is looking for - the possible reason why he has that Freikorps medal combined with the EK and China medal. For one thing, as a China veteran, he would have been at least in his 30s during WWI and middle-aged by the time of the Freikorps period - so older than normal for this type of service.

 

If you read my posts on GMIC, you'll see what I've contributed. Can you say the same?

 

I'm not looking for a fight or to compete with you. But, your tone is condescending and offensive and this isn't the first time I've noticed it.

 

I'll steer clear of you from now on. I don't need to waste my time with know-it-alls and smart asses.

 

But, I would suggest that if you are as clever and knowledgeable as you think you are, then post something from your collection that contributes to the knowledge of the forum community.

Edited February 14, 2022 by bolewts58

[v.Perlet]

22 minutes ago, bolewts58 said:

....... But, you're being obtuse, playing with semantics and splitting hairs about 'East, Far East' to make yourself look clever and you are STILL talking down to me, which I don't appreciate......

 

.......because you know nothing about what is being discussed. ......

 

.......I 'm the one who has concrete knowledge about the Iron Division Medal and why it might be on this bar.

 

.......your tone is condescending and offensive and this isn't the first time I've noticed it.

 

.......I don't need to waste my time with know-it-alls and smart asses.

 

...... I would suggest that if you are as clever and knowledgeable as you think you are, then post something from your collection that contributes to the knowledge of the forum community...........

???? just look at your own statements !!! ?

 

landsknechte's concern and question was in regards to the missing of a long service medal and not as to what a iron division ribbon, or what the iron Division is about - you did not even catch the question, and you never gave an answer towards that "specific" issue.

 

Over and out

Edited February 14, 2022 by v.Perlet