Karl Barth leather wear/ steel buckle shanks

[Guest simon500]

Does anyone have any WW1 leather wear made by Karl Barth of Waldbrol?

I am trying to work out if a belt I own which is maker marked and dated is 100 original. I've got a question mark about the buckle that came with it (which is brass and nickle but has a steel wrapped shank which I am told suggests a repro) so I've started to question the belt.

If anyone has any Barth leather wear that has a maker mark and could describe it to me or photo it and put it in the thread that'd great.

Also, does anyone know of any manufacturers making brass and nickle buckles that have steel shanks with the prongs coming out from this (this type was used widely in WW2 but I am told it is incorrect on ww1 buckles esp. brass and nickle examples which should have all brass shanks and prongs.

Many thanks chaps,

Simon Cooper, UK

Remember the Somme, 90 years - 1st July 1916

[Chip]

Yes, I have several pieces. It seems his specialty was Sanit?ter and Krankentr?ger pouches. I have also logged several of the kidney shaped, three clip ammo pouches that were worn mostly by pioneers and second line troops that carried the carbine (Eisenbahn, Telegraph, usw.). This is the first belt I have encountered, but I would be relatively sure that it is a good one. The buckle being bad is not a gaurantee that the belt is also bad. Can you post a photo of the two items in question?

Chip

[Guest simon500]

Yes, I have several pieces. It seems his specialty was Sanit?ter and Krankentr?ger pouches. I have also logged several of the kidney shaped, three clip ammo pouches that were worn mostly by pioneers and second line troops that carried the carbine (Eisenbahn, Telegraph, usw.). This is the first belt I have encountered, but I would be relatively sure that it is a good one. The buckle being bad is not a gaurantee that the belt is also bad. Can you post a photo of the two items in question?

Chip

Hi Chip,

I wish I could but my brother's taken our digital camera off to uni with her so at the moment we're in the dark with pics. I could get it in a month or so when he's back. The makers mark has the date 1915 which has a slight curl to the numerals and is about 3cms across and then 'Karl Barth' over the top curving round (as if going around the edge of a circle) and 'Waldbrol' doing the same the other way below the date. The belt was clearly once brown but has been blackened on the outside and has a steel hook on the end to secure the belt in place. The maker's mark is situated at the end of the belt where the leather is stitched back on itself to secure this steel hook in place. There is another mark '100' to the opposite end. Belt is the adjustable type with leather strip on the inside to move the buckle's location depending on wearer.

Do you know anything about this maker's mark - does it sound familiar to you?

The problem is that I'm not even 100 per cent sure the buckle's not genuine. I've heard that mine, like all those with steel wrapped shanks (where the prongs come out from two holes in the shank as opposed to being welded directly onto the vertical shankbar) are repros. It seems particularly iffy on a brass and nickle buckle to have a steel wrapped shank. But you see the buckle has a worn 1915 dated leather tab with a Bensburg maker's mark 'Offerman und Sohne'. Do you have any buckles with these offensive 'steel wrapped' shanks in your vast collection?

As always Chip, I greatly appreciate your advice and knowledge. Just sorry I couldn't be more help by adding photos.

Yours,

Simon

[Chip]

Simon,

My items are in storage in my basement, but I will be glad to dig them out this coming weekend and take some photos for you. I must say, however, from your description, the belt sounds fine. I would say that if your buckle has an original leather lead tab that matches the buckle in condition, there would not be too much to worry about. I did pull out about six of my M95 buckles and none of them has a steel keeper on it. That part doesn't sound good. We shall see.....

I went to my notes to look up Offerman & S?hne and found that you have asked about this buckle before, because I have an entry in my imperial leather workers list with all of this information from the tab, with your name. So you must have given it before.

Chip

[Daniel Murphy]

It seems particularly iffy on a brass and nickle buckle to have a steel wrapped shank.

It does seem iffy, but I have seen a genuine early steel buckle with a m95 style shank made from steel. It is possible it is a transitional piece. Made, probably 1915 when the last issue brass buckles were made. Basically, if the maker gets to a point where he has more old style buckle frames than old style shanks, at some point an older style buckle, is going to get a newer shank. Look closely at the stitching on the tab, if it old and worn and looks correct, it is probably good. However someone may have taken a tab from a trashed buckle and put it on this one. Never heard of it being done because the tabs are so hard to find on real buckles, but greed knows no bounds, so who knows. If the stitching looks new or it is obviously dyed or darkened after it was sewn, it is bad. If the wrapped shank is or was nickel plated, it is almost surely a fake. This would not have been done on a supposed issue buckle. I would definitely like to see the pics whenever you can get them.

Edited May 31, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest simon500]

It does seem iffy, but I have seen a genuine early steel buckle with a m95 style shank made from steel. It is possible it is a transitional piece. Made, probably 1915 when the last issue brass buckles were made. Basically, if the maker gets to a point where he has more old style buckle frames than old style shanks, at some point an older style buckle, is going to get a newer shank. Look closely at the stitching on the tab, if it old and worn and looks correct, it is probably good. However someone may have taken a tab from a trashed buckle and put it on this one. Never heard of it being done because the tabs are so hard to find on real buckles, but greed knows no bounds, so who knows. If the stitching looks new or it is obviously dyed or darkened after it was sewn, it is bad. If the wrapped shank is or was nickel plated, it is almost surely a fake. This would not have been done on a supposed issue buckle. I would definitely like to see the pics whenever you can get them.

Many thanks Gents,

Yes Chip I've approached the forum over this one before. The question mark over this belt and buckle has been a thorn in my side for a good while now. I really would appreciate if you could look up the barth makers mark for me and try to get a picture or something so I could compare it to mine.

I have to say this buckle really in an enigma. If there was no leather tab on it and it was just on the belt I'd have taken it off years ago and put another Bavarian buckle on there (I have now bought one) but the tab makes me wonder if the buckle's actually an original. It was bought from one of the UK's leading and most respected militaria dealers so we do have to wonder.

kind regards,

Simon