Imperial Russia Unknown Russian mark - Order of the Double Dragon

[drclaw]

Gents,

Chinese medals are my particular interest so Imperial Russian marks are not something I'm familiar with.

I'd be grateful for any help in identifying a Russian mark on an Imperial Chinese Order of the Double Dragon.

The suspension pin catch has, in unbelievably tiny writing, "I" and what appears to be "AR" or "BR", with the R having a long curvy tail.

Then follows a smudge and then the number "84", which I understand is the Russian silver mark.

The breast star is a Second Type, Second Class, Third Grade Double Dragon, conferred between 1902-1911.

Most of the Second Type Double Dragons were made in China but this one has a number of features that suggests non-Chinese manufacture.

First, the centre stone is a plain red coral. Chinese made insignia usually have an orange centre stone carved with the Chinese longevity symbol.

Second, the Mandarin inscriptions (in old Chinese seal script) on the right hand side look like they were carved by someone from Mars, or at least not familiar with Mandarin.

Any help would be great!

Gavin

[JapanX]

I'd be grateful for any help in identifying a Russian mark on an Imperial Chinese Order of the Double Dragon.

The suspension pin catch has, in unbelievably tiny writing, "I" and what appears to be "AR" or "BR", with the R having a long curvy tail.

Then follows a smudge and then the number "84", which I understand is the Russian silver mark.

The breast star is a Second Type, Second Class, Third Grade Double Dragon, conferred between 1902-1911.

Any close ups?

AR or BR...

Hmmm...

I know the double dragon maker ФР - Fedor Ruckert (Faberge workmaster).

I saw at least two breast stars of double dragon that he made.

Smudge?

Maybe kokoshnik or two anchors with sceptre?

Cheers,

Nick

[drclaw]

Hey Nick,

Well I upgraded to a jeweller's 10X magnifying glass from my 6X.

After staring at the markings I began to see things - first a koala bear, then Elvis, and maybe the 84 is actually 800 or EEE!!! But the first three letters does appear to be "I" or "1" and then "AR" or "BR". It doesn't appear to be Ф unfortunately ...

Will next try a 200X digital microscope which will be able to scan images which I can post.

Gavin

[drclaw]

Yeah, I saw that magnificent Fedor Ruckert breast star - it has come up for sale twice in the last 3 years.

But the last asking price was simply astronomical and it was passed in at auction.

[JapanX]

After staring at the markings I began to see things - first a koala bear, then Elvis, and maybe the 84 is actually 800 or EEE!!! But the first three letters does appear to be "I" or "1" and then "AR" or "BR". It doesn't appear to be Ф unfortunately ...

A classic thriller full of suspense!

Yeah, I saw that magnificent Fedor Ruckert breast star - it has come up for sale twice in the last 3 years.

This one? ;)

[JapanX]

Mark

[JapanX]

Or this one (from the same ФР)

[JapanX]

Or maybe you were lucky enought to see this eccentric breast star from МБ maker? ;)

[JapanX]

Mark

[JapanX]

Will next try a 200X digital microscope which will be able to scan images which I can post.

I`ll stick around ;)

[drclaw]

The Russian made Double Dragons are just beautiful. But you wouldn't expect anything less.

Any theories why a breast star might be marked Fedor Ruckert but not Faberge?

I've used a 20X jewellers magnifying glass and also took some shots with a digital microscope.

I'm guessing "1 A C(or R or L) F E". But it could be the Dark Tongue of Mordor!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2012/post-11630-0-56061200-1336659012.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2012/post-11630-0-78103800-1336659039.jpg

[JapanX]

I've used a 20X jewellers magnifying glass and also took some shots with a digital microscope.

You've got skills!

I'm guessing "1 A C(or R or L) F E". But it could be the Dark Tongue of Mordor!

Sorry to disappoint you mate, but I think these are not russian (or any other country) marks.

These are deep scratches made by some goblin ...

Could you post the pic of smudge + 84 mark (is it in middle of the pin?)

And (if you have time) close ups of obverse and reverse of this highly interesting piece ;)

[JapanX]

Any theories why a breast star might be marked Fedor Ruckert but not Faberge?

Because since 1886 he had his own workshop (active until 1918)

Some pieces he manufactured for Faberge (and these pieces usually have additional Faberge mark)) and some for others firms or private clients.

[drclaw]

I haven't flung it into the fireplace yet to see if the letters light up

No, there's no smudge and the "84" now appears to be "FE".

The breast star is definitely European. I looked through the 100s of Russian mnt marks in the link in the pinned topic but couldn't find a match. Given the letters are Roman and the absence of an "84", I'm thinking it's less likely to be Russian.

Close up pics to follow!

[drclaw]

[drclaw]

[JapanX]

I haven't flung it into the fireplace yet to see if the letters light up

Great idea!

No, there's no smudge and the "84" now appears to be "FE".

Looks like this evil Nameless Enemy is playing games with you

Given the letters are Roman and the absence of an "84", I'm thinking it's less likely to be Russian.

Some russian makers used latin letters ;)

[JapanX]

Any theories why a breast star might be marked Fedor Ruckert but not Faberge?

This is how it will look like with additional ФАБЕРЖЕ mark ;)

[drclaw]

Even their makers' marks are stunning!

The Imperial Russian Orders would be the most beautiful of any country's. I only own one - a French-made Order of St Anne, 3rd Class - and was very tempted to bid for an Eduard St Stanislaus breast star.

[Markus]

What beautiful Double Dragon stars! Thanks Nick & Gavin for such a nice thread. There certainly was a lot of variation in the different maker versions of this order. Gavin I think your medal marks will remain a mystery in that they are so abstract. Such great eye candy!

Markus

[JapanX]

Gavin I think your medal marks will remain a mystery in that they are so abstract.

Exactly!

Too abstract!!!

Still wating for this mysterious "smudge/no smudge/84/FE/" scans... :whistle:

[JapanX]

Second, the Mandarin inscriptions (in old Chinese seal script) on the right hand side look like they were carved by someone from Mars, or at least not familiar with Mandarin.

By the way, I have read somewhere that St. Petersburg workshops manufactured only breast star corpuses - central medallions were manufactured in China!

Ain't it cool?!

Cheers,

Nick

[drclaw]

Yeah, I don't think we'll every find out what "1 ARFE" stands for. ARFE is possibly a Portugese name ...

Nick, the smudge / 84 actually turned out to be "FE" under higher magnification.

From what I gathered:

* the First Type Double Dragons (1882-1901) standard neck badges were mostly manufactured in Europe;

* the First Type Double Dragon breast stars (transitional type) had the star corpus manufactured in Europe but with a Chinese manufactured centre (which was a reduced size First Type Double Dragon badge)

* the Second Type Double Dragons (1902-1911) were mostly manufactured in China. The European / Russian insignia were typically marked (and usually much clearer than my example!), while the Chinese insignia were typically unmarked.

[JapanX]

Yeah, I don't think we'll every find out what "1 ARFE" stands for. ARFE is possibly a Portugese name ...

1 ARFE?!

:43:

[JapanX]

Nick, the smudge / 84 actually turned out to be "FE" under higher magnification.

Portugese FE or the real one?

Please don`t hesitate to show this mark ;)