Austria-Hungary Would anyone know if this uniform is austro hungarian and what vintage

[Eva]

I recently aquired a set of photos of husband and wife large format and the husband is wearing what I think is an austo-hungarian or perhaps bavarian uniform, but I am not very familiar with this time period , so any assistance would be appreciated. I think the medal is a franko prussian medal that he is wearing. I put a cd next to this so you can see how big the foto is.http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-8517-0-22557600-1397360348.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-8517-0-55625300-1397360318.jpg

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

It´s not austrian. It´s a german one. I´m not sure with the unit. Could you please make a close-up of the shoulder straps and the sabre?

[Eva]

I'll do so tomorrow when I go to my other building where I have it stored. Thanks for the info though it's very much appreciated. Seemed unusual to find such a lage format foto, most I see are small but these are huge. I tried for now just to zoom the strap and sword, but I'll do a better close up foto tomorrow. the strap seems to have the same trapazoidal shaped device as the top of the medal. My understanding is that fotos of this age were expensive to do, so would that imply the guy is a high rank or a well to do person since both he and his wife are large format.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

Thanks for the close-up! That makes it clearer!

He doesn´t have a button upon his collar, but braids, so his rank is Unteroffizier (the lowest NCO rank). His shoulder boards have latin numbers. I can´t recognize them, maybe a VII.

So he is a Stabsordonnnaz (staff-orderly? I don´t know the english term).

Anyway, he wears the number of his army-corps. If it is a VII, he served with the seventh army-corps in Westphalia (where I live too...).

The uniform was grey-green with yellow braids. I´m not sure with the sabre.Probably he wears a prussian cavalry-sword (Kavalleriedegen).

I attached another photo of a Stabsordonnanz to compare (note: the braids on the front of the tunic were left-out later. So your photo must be taken after 1910.

Is there an indicator, where the pic was taken?

Edited April 13, 2014 by The Prussian

[Eva]

Unfortunately there is no date on it, the backing was brown paper that was deteriorating and the glass was cracked. So I replaced the glass with UV non reactive lexan and remounted it. I really apprciate the help . I make costumes and I also collect uniforms and am trying to establish a small military costume museum in my hole in the wall town. But it is nice when children see these things to be able to give correct information instead of me guessing. A close friend of mine sent me a small foto of his grandfather and then showed me his grandfather medal who was in the franko Prussian war and I noticed the medal looked the same as what my friend had in a box but the German uniform he wore was different. So I thought maybe this was some franko prussian uniform in an Austrian style . Many thanks for setting me straight. I wish I had the uniform for a display. There is a certain presence to the style of fotos and uniforms from pre ww2 that appeals very much to me. I also love Hungarian uniforms so I was also kind of hoping it might be some Hungarian variant since that is my main interest. But it will have it;s own little place of homor on our walls. Wish I knew the names of the 2 people. It was apparently in a storage locker where the person passed away and a local auctioneer then bid on the locker and resold everything at auction where I purchased them. I also acquired a ww1 m16 helmet same auction. I wonder if it was worn by this man in the photo.

I recently looked at my nieces high school history book and there was but one paragraph on ww1 and maybe 1 page on ww2, it boggles my mind how much history is being disregarded today in the traditional US education system.

Again many thanks and best wishes Eva

[Eva]

Please forgive my spelling , I work well with my hands but I am a dyslexic so text is not a strong medium for me.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

I think it´s great, you are interesting in uniforms. That´s not usual for a woman!

Could you please make a close-up of his medal?

In peacetime there were not too much soldiers of this branch. Each commanding general of an army-corps had an NCO-Stabsordonnanz, the other generals of brigades and divisions had just a corporal. So each army-corps only had roundabout 12 Stabsordonnanzen. In wartime they were transfered to the mounted staff-guards of the divisions.

If a commanding-general had only one single NCO-Stabsordonnanz ("Stabsordonnanz-Unteroffizier"), we might to know, when the pic was taken.

I think, it´s a late photo, because his uniform changed (the front-braids are missing), probably 1910 or later.

The commanding generals of the VII.Army-corps (If it is a VII upon the shoulder straps!) were:

11.8.1909-16.9.1914: Gen.d.Kav. Karl v. Einem, gen. Rothmaler

16.9.1914-29.6.1915: Gen.d.Inf. Eberhard v. Claer

29.6.1915-6.8.1918: Gen.d.Inf. Hermann v. Francois

6.7.1918-18.1.1919: Generalleutnant Wilhelm v. Woyna

18.1.1919-30.9.1919: Generalleutnant Oskar Freiherr v. Watter

Edited April 14, 2014 by The Prussian

[Eva]

I will do so tomorrow as it is late here and I need some sleep, very long day for me. I also have a picture of my friends grandfathers medal that I think looks like this, I will find that also and post both the one from my foto and also the one of my friends medal so you can see then why I thought was franko prussian war.

[Eva]

Here is the close up of the medal on my fotos, the resolution is not very good so very little if any detail is visible.

I also attached a picture my friend sent me of his grandfather who had a very similar medal he showed me, I have misplaced the picture of that medal and it is not on his uniform in the picture I attached. I emailed my friend to ask him to please resend it to me so I will post that for you as soon as he resends it.

Meanwhile here is his grandfather in what he says is a franko prussian uniform or at least he assumes that era since his family who have the medal all relate that as part of his grandfather history. The fotos he has are small of his grandfather and the uniform looks similar but there are difference in the cuffs and a few details that differentiate it from my large fotos I acquired.

The actual medal he has please give me a day or two for him to respond and send again those pictures to me.

As for my atypical interest in military uniforms an being a woman. I worked in theatre until I retired about a couple years back. It is a highly political business with many creative and some very difficult people to work with or for. I never got big movie production work since again it is very political so my way to keep my foot in the door was to try and specialise in specific costumes. One venue of costumes I liked to work with was military, probably because poppa was a career military man and also because I have a romantisized fixation with pre ww2 men in uniform. The older uniforms with more flash and a very different style then what we see today just made men look more dashing in my humble opinion. I especially love the monarchist period csendors with the kalaps and pelerines slung over their backs . Maybe in a former life I was coupled to such a man or perhaps it;s a childhood nostalgia . they say women always look for a mate that reminds them of their poppa so who knows. Whatever the case I love the look from pre ww2 days . I have a collection of various uniforms I made patterns from for work and occasionally got paid for consulting on some uniform construct. Theatre tends to over emphasize some facets however, sometimes insignia etc are manufactured larger then real insignia so they stand out better on stage or film other times anacronistic facets are intentionally done which sets off the purist crowd but the reasons for these anacronisms are either from ignorance, low production budget, or the want to set an emotional tone and discard accurate history because the producer is more concerned with a message in the script rather then historical details. (that makes for a lot of fights the costume departments get stuck in the middle of)

These days in my old age I am sorting through my mess of uniforms and some of the theatre costumes I have and attempting to group things in proper historical context for a small museum I have been trying to get off the ground as a non profit to give me something to do rather then sit in a chair and talk about who is sick or what funerals I have recently gone to, plus I get to work with students a bit on a volnteer basis for teaching a little more history then the miniscule coverage modern school texts include. In essence I get to toot my old horn a bit to make myself feel useful. Children also light up when they can touch items and hear stories better then just sitting in a classroom hearing a lecture read from a book.

Forgive please my poor spelling and grammar, text has always been a hinderance in my life and I could not find a spellcheck tool in here.

Again Prusian thank you for your information and kindness, perhaps someday if I am again in Germany we can share a beer and shake hands in person. I am hoping to return to Budapest this summer and travel around a bit once again to other countries.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

That´s very intersting, reading woman´s point of view about unifoms. Great! I agre with you with the old uniforms. They are much more beautiful than the simple camouflage uniforms of our days.

Well, a beer in Germany would be fine. We have so many of them, we could sell it...

Unfortunately I can´t identify the medal. I´m not s specialist in medals. Maybe the other friends here could help.

Can you recognize antyhing upon the shoulder strap of the second photo?

[brass99]

Hello Eva!

It´s not austrian. It´s a german one. I´m not sure with the unit. Could you please make a close-up of the shoulder straps and the sabre?

I recently aquired a set of photos of husband and wife large format and the husband is wearing what I think is an austo-hungarian or perhaps bavarian uniform, but I am not very familiar with this time period , so any assistance would be appreciated. I think the medal is a franko prussian medal that he is wearing. I put a cd next to this so you can see how big the foto is.IMG_0011.JPGIMG_0012.JPG

Eva,

Your man appears to be in kurassier uniform, note the cuffs, and holding a kurassier pallasch.

Regards,

Terry

[The Prussian]

Eva,

Your man appears to be in kurassier uniform, note the cuffs, and holding a kurassier pallasch.

Regards,

Terry

Hello!

No, 100% no Kürassier. There only were four regiments with a chiffre on the shoulder straps.

1. WR

2. L

6. Cyrillic N

8. GR V

Each chiffre had a crown above.

Here we have a latin number, so Stabsordonnanz

[Eva]

Thank you both Prusian and also Terry. I hope I have not thrown a proverbial grenade in the room. I acquired the two large fotos of the couple at a local auction here in NE Masachusetts. Interesting that my understanding is that there was a group of Germans that came here about 1887 and established a community but it dwindled after ww1 and Poles and Irish seem to have dominated the area regarding imigrants. Today there is a large hispanic influx. The fotos are from some local estate storage locker that the auctioneer sold off but he wouldn't give me the family name as they keep that private which is a shame when you are trying to do research. the brown paper on the back had been torn loose and was just falling to crumbs but I assume the auctioneer cuts all fotos open looking for hidden money or whatever because they always seem to have the framed backs opened.

Prussian yes you have wonderful beer in Germany and the meat markets there and in Hungary take me back to when I was little. Between the good beer and good cold cuts I could have been a very fat old lady if I stayed any longer. I was in Krefeld, Dusseldorf and Essen for a while then went to Budapest and toured some of Poland. had my teeth worked on in Hungary because the cost was a tenth of what it cost here in the USA. I also went to a military show in Budapest where I was of course the only woman and all the men were quite amused. At first when I was in Germany I was a bit taken back because I was expecting more historical archtecture until it dawned on me how much was destroyed in the war. I was searching for small antique stores but didnlt really find much in Germany given the time I was there. Hungary I found many things since I was there a month and could manage a little of the language, my Duetsch however leaves a lot to be desired . I would love to have found a bdm skirt to go with the jacket I have but not easy to broach the subject of ww2 memorabilia in Germany without potentially offending some people.

anyway thank you both for you help, it is much appreciated

[The Prussian]

Hi Eva!

I know the towns you used to be very well. I live in Essen...

It´s good place for collectors, because there are a lot of expos in Belgium and the largest german one in Kassel. Both are max 2hrs away.

It´s really sad, that you can´t get the na m eof the soldier. It would be much easies to find out something. Is it possible for you to make a close-up of the shoulder strap of the picture in #9, please? Or can you read anything?

[Eva]

I made a close up of the foto area, however this foto is a small size only perhaps 2 inches by 4 inches so close up is not the best quality.

Some of my family is also from Essen , my grossmomma's sister was a factory guard or something like that in Essen during ww2 I have a luftschutz helmet I was told was hers it was completely rusty no liner so a friend sand blasted it and repainted it for me and I bought the decals. I know some collectors not like to do this but it was so badly rusty if you picked it up you got brown hands, so at least now the deterioration is halted. Had the paint still been present I would have not touched it. Someday I will find a liner for it and complete it.

Best wishes Eva

[Eva]

I thought you might find this interesting. I enlarged the book and it is something about horses. The soldier is a foto my friend Scott sent me. Originally he thought this was his grandfather but his sister now gave him an album that was the actual album of his grandfather and this was a picture of when his grandfather went back to Germany and is some other relative that came from that album. The family name was Kleine so he thinks this man should also be a Kleine . he is going to send me other pictures of his grandfather from the franko prussian war but he's slow doing things so I am sure it will be a week or two before he does so. he mentioned he has some fotos of some famous German ships also from turn of the century so when he sends me the fotos I will post them.

My large fotos (the set) there is no name or date so that set of fotos is a mystery.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

Well, the Luftschutz-helmets are not very rare here in Germany, because still in a lot of road and building constructions they are found by the workers.

Back to the photo. It´s strange to define the colours, because some colours appear in another colour as they really are.

We have brandenburg cuffs (three buttons vertical). Those were worn by infantry and foot-artillery. The shoulder-strap semms to be "edged", but that can´t be, because edged ones were worn by saxon units. But I see a prussian collar-button. Saxon units didn´t have those cuffs.

So the collar might be red and the shoulder straps blue or yellow (yellow often appears nearly black!). The cuffs might be red with white pipings. Unfortunately I can´t anything upon the strap, but there is something! Probably a number.

Now it´ll be interesting, in which area the man lived. For the combinations I mentioned above we have the following possibilities:

Red cuffs, white pipings, yellow shoulder straps:

V.Armycorps (Posen):

Gren.Rgt.6 (Posen)

Inf.Rgt.19 (Görlitz and Lauban)

Inf.Rgt.37 (Krotoschin)

Inf.Rgt.46 (Posen and Wreschen)

Inf.Rgt.47 (Posen and Schrimm)

Inf.Rgt.50 (Rawitsch and Lissa)

Inf.Rgt.58 (Glogau and Fraustadt)

Inf.Rgt.155 (Ostrowo and Pleschen)

Red cuffs, white pipings, blue shoulder straps:

VII. Armycorps (Westphalia)

Inf.Rgt.13 (Münster)

Inf.Rgt.15 (Minden)

Inf.Rgt.16 (Mülheim/Ruhr)

Füs.Rgt.39 (Düsseldorf)

Inf.Rgt.53 (Köln)

Inf.Rgt.55 (Höxter, Bielefeld, Detmold)

Inf.Rgt.56 (Wesel, Cleve)

Inf.Rgt.57 (Wesel)

Inf.Rgt.159 (Mülheim/Ruhr)

Edited April 19, 2014 by The Prussian

[Eva]

My friend sent me a few more fotos, some of his grandfather in franko prussian war and also of that mans medal the family has kept for many years. The grandfathers name was Lewis Kleine , the other foto that you are describing he is not sure what family member this is but was in the same album his grandfathers fotos were with. I will attach the fotos he sent.

Also a little progress on the set of fotos I have of the soldier and wife. I had removed the soldires foto from the frame because the glass was cracked as I mentioned before, but I never removed the womans. I did so last night and on the womans foto there is a name it looks like Weiss Offe but the script makes the Offe obscure, it could also be Affe or maybe you might make more sense of it. If they are indeed husband and wife which I would highly suspect then the soldier may laso share the same name. I will attach a foto of the back with the writing . I don't know why the soldiers foto has no name written on it, one would assume if you do so on one you do so on both.

So this reply I will put the back of my fotos and a subsequent reply I will attach lewis Kleine's fotos and medal from my friend. I know German style fonts can have the letter s look like an f from those days so maybe it is Osse or Asse under the word Weiss . It is rather faded from age.

[Eva]

here are ow the fotos of Lewis Kleine

the first is 1870 in Europe

next is 1905 in New York after imigration

next his wife we think 1915

Interesting to see the progress of his aging. There is also a foto of his son in 1905 driving a car that woudn't fit in this attachment.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

I think, it´ll be an abbreviation of his rank. Probably Uffz. (Unteroffizier = NCO).

The last photo is a franco-prussian war photo. But unfortunately one can´t make out the unit

Edited April 20, 2014 by The Prussian

[Eva]

this is his son Alfred Kleine 1905 with his momma

[Eva]

here is the medal both sides

[The Prussian]

The photo with the car is nice. Number plates from New Jersey.

The medal was the medal, each soldier did recieve, who served in the 70/71 war

[Eva]

How strange they would put Uffz on the wife foto . Thank you though so so much for all your help, perhaps some day I might return the favour.

It is too bad the foto of Lewis kleine is not more definitive but the original is very faded and my friend is reluctant to do too many fotos of it as he feels the flash degrades the image further. I know he intends to have someone copy and restore the image so maybe when he does so I can repost it with more detail. he knows very little of his grandfather other then after he arrived in America. he did go back to Germany for a short period which is where he thinks the other foto was taken of the ww1 uniform family member. I would assume also Kleine is a common name and hard to research.

Now as for my foto set so the soldier is of the correct rank to have the Uffz make sense to write on the back of the wife foto???

Again my sincere many thanks for your assitance.

[The Prussian]

Hello Eva!

Well, I´m not sure, if there was written "Uffz". It was just a guess. But it fits to the rank of the man (Stabsordonnanz). According to the name, it could be Weiss or Weise. Those handwritings are always difficulty, because whose name could it be? The atelier? The person who was photographed? An unknown person, who ordered another photo from the atelier?

The only thing, you can do, is to check all the names fit to the circle in that family. Maybe there is a similar name