Mongolia Mongolian shoulder boards

[Ed_Haynes]

I know only slightly more about these than I do about things like patches, and the existing sources aren't very good: Battushig's book, the various US area handbooks, and the online

http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p...35&sid=2169

http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p=state&id=158

Despite this -- or perhaps due to this -- let me post some items here in hopes we can sort some things out. Numbering these so I and I hope we can make easy reference.

Posting somewhat randomly, using the 'Rick Rule' to rotate 90 degrees before scanning. (All are in pairs.)

1- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), dress, lieutenant (?)

2- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), field, lieutenant-colonel (?)

3- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), field, major (?)

None have any tags or marks on the reverse -- I'd mention such if this were the case.

[Ed_Haynes]

4- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), field, maybe police officer (?)

5- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), field, maybe police sgt. (?)

6- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), field, major (?) - marked 1990 on reverse

[Ed_Haynes]

7- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), dress, sgt. major

8- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), dress, sgt. major (?)

9- post-1945/pre-1992 (?), dress, sgt. lt-colonel (?), slip-on

[Ed_Haynes]

10- post-1992/pre-today (?), field, colonel

11- post-1992/pre-today (?), field, senior lt.

12- some sort of goofy police thing? captain maybe (?) the color is gray-blue in case the scan is misleading

[Ed_Haynes]

13- another police-like thing, also captain (?), light olive green

14- contemporary, dress slip-on, major

15- contemporary, dress slip-on, lt-colonel, maybe air force (?)

[Guest Rick Research]

Ooog. Need branch of service color data!

Dark blue = State Security

Dark Green = Border Guards (if following Soviet system)

but red and white = ?

#12 would be for a gray shirt-- 4 star general?

#13 also for a shirt, only army color. Same?

[Ed_Haynes]

16- contemporary, dress, senior sgt.

17- contemporary, field, colonel

18- contemporary, field, lt-colonel

19- contemporary, field, senior private (or senior sgt?)

[Ed_Haynes]

And, finally for now, some very early (well, pre-1942?) unknowns.

20-

21-

22-

More later as I sort.

[Ed_Haynes]

Ooog. Need branch of service color data!

Dark blue = State Security

Dark Green = Border Guards (if following Soviet system)

but red and white = ?

#12 would be for a gray shirt-- 4 star general?

#13 also for a shirt, only army color. Same?

Good question, Rick. I suspect Soviet models were followed "closely", but how closely? The question is being asked.

I now kick myself pre-1949 goodies for not acquiring many more of these when I had the chance.

[Guest Rick Research]

20 and 21 must be sleeve thingums.

22 is a collar tab from a gimnastyorka-- missing button--hole down at the rounded back end.

[Riley1965]

Ed, These are GREAT!!! I've never seen such a variety of Mongolian shoulderboards (If any?!!).

Doc

[Ed_Haynes]

I am sneaking up, slowly, toward some sort of understanding of Mongolian rank insigniae. Soon, I'll post some guesses here.

In the interim, a set of collar tabs, arm patch (?), and greatcoat collar patch (?) for what I think is pre-WWII state security.

The scan may not look that way, but the dark is dark green.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

While there does not seem to be tremendous interest in these, let me continue to document what I can, against the day when we figure them out and/or there is some emerging interest.

Some items (the first three) that seem to reflect a replacement of Soviet-style insigniae with US-style insigniae.

The fourth item is, of course, a collar patch. Branch colors to be determined.

[Ed_Haynes]

And more along the same lines, background color is dark green.

[Ed_Haynes]

And, finally, one that I think we can identify. (Compare it to #21, above.)

Again, the background is dark green.

[Ed_Haynes]

As worn by a friend of us all (Tsedenbal), ca. 1942 (earlier I think) (from the 50th Anniversary History of the Mongolian Army).

I suggest this is state security (= Mongolian KGB = commisar).

[Guest Rick Research]

Aha!

The stripes in posts 13 and 14 (especially the latter) are probably sleeve indications of class year for military school cadets. The straight ones are exact duplicates of Soviet ones from say 1969 on.

[Ed_Haynes]

A collection of shoulder board insigniae. Some familiar, some unfamiliar, some known, some unknown. On authentic Mongolian cardboard.

[Guest Rick Research]

Aside from the top two star-ish things, those are all Soviet pattern branch insignia for collar tabs and/or shoulder boards depending on form of uniform being worn, post 1969. The air force propellers at bottom left have a bit wider center than any I have seen on Soviet ones.

None of these have appeared on any of the shoulder boards you've found so far, so presumably if the exact Soviet pattern was worn, these insignia are from late model collar tabs on overcoats and so on.

[Ed_Haynes]

Good points, Rick. I think most of the shoulder boards I have posted were from unissued stock, so they may never had had branch insigniae.

The winged prop:

[Ed_Haynes]

The star-thingy (by which I assume you mean the one at the top) is completely unknown to Battushig, though it seems to be remarkably similar to the collar badge worn by the guard at the parliament building I photographed in May.

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=18232&st=30

[Guest Rick Research]

Bingo!!!!

The shoulder boards worn on most forms of uniform in the Soviet bloc since the late 1950s had no branch devices because those were worn on collar tabs instead. The only forms of dress that had branch insignia on boards were things like shirts when no collar tabs were worn.

Forgot to mention-- the silver colored snake and goblet is for the veterinary branch-- no doubt extremely important in Mongolia. I've just read Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts," and he says current Mongolian border forces are still using ponies and camels for patrolling-- no mechanical parts to seize up, no need to truck in fuel-- and worst comes to worst, they're edible.

[Ed_Haynes]

From the Mongolian Military Museum, the display of rank collar tabs of the first (1924-27) style. These are what Battushig's illustrations are based on.

[Ed_Haynes]

What Battushig shows as the 1936-44 designs. What was in use 1927-36?

These are also in the same museum.

[Ed_Haynes]

And the post-1944 style.